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  Dr. Necochea: Good morning, Dr. Clarence Lloyd. Today is Tuesday, May 24th. This is Dr. Ra煤l Necochea from the 黑料网, doing an interview with Dr. Clarence Lloyd, 黑料网 class of 1974, for the Black Alumni Experience project. Welcome, Dr. Lloyd.

  Dr. Lloyd: Thank you very much.

  Dr. Necochea: It is a pleasure to have you here with us. As I’ve mentioned before, this is a project that was inspired by students and their interest in learning more about what it was like for practitioners who went to medical school and who did residency a few decades ago, and to learn what has changed and what hasn’t changed. And the first question I have for you concerns your origin story. Would you please tell us a little bit about your date of birth and your place of birth?

  Dr. Lloyd: Sure. I’m born in a small town called Williamston, North Carolina. Williamston is spelled W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S-T-O-N, North Carolina. It鈥檚 in Martin County, approximately 20 miles from East Carolina University in Greenville. I was born and raised there, and matter of fact, I, there for my whole years of high school, first through 12th grade.

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. What was it like to grow up there?

  Dr. Lloyd: Well, back then, everything was basically segregated. So, I went to a segregated school. And I live approximately two miles from the school, one way. So, each morning, I walked to school. The relationship between the Blacks and Whites was, I would say, one of cordial, that know where everybody at. Seemed like we had a place, and everybody just stayed in their place. Not a lot of friction, from the standpoint that everybody just knew each other, but there was no lines crossed. There seemed to be a dividing line.

  Dr. Necochea: And your family, can you tell me a little bit about the people you grew up with?

  Dr. Lloyd: Yes. Several kids in my family also went on to do well. My neighborhood at the time, everything was segregated. So, I was in a Black neighborhood. I stayed on the last street before leaving the small town, and past my street, then you out, we called the country. You were no longer in the city limits. And a lot of my classmates from that time, many of them did not go to college. Many of them went to the northern portion of the country, like Stamford, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, and got jobs immediately after leaving high school.

  Dr. Necochea: Were you the first child in your family to go to college?

  Dr. Lloyd: Yes, I was the first one to go to college. And how I got in college, my high school class, they made approximately 100 students and I rated in eighth and ninth in that class. And the valedictorians [inaudible] [00:3:40] the class, they were sisters, and they wanted to go to the same school. And one of them got a scholarship to go to Fayetteville State, but they didn’t want to go to Fayetteville State. And so, by chance, the counselor said, 鈥淵ou want to go to Fayetteville State?鈥�

  I had planned, really, to go to the army, stay 20 years, and probably retire. But that scholarship came through I said, 鈥淪ure.鈥� He said, 鈥淲ell, you’re going to Fayetteville, anyway. They might wanna [inaudible], you don鈥檛 like Fayetteville State, you鈥檙e right there at Fort Bragg.鈥� So, that’s how I got to Fayetteville State.

  Dr. Necochea: What did your parents do? Did you grow up with your parents in 鈥�?

  Dr. Lloyd: My parents, I grew up both with my mother and father. And my father was a janitor, and my mother, of course, she did maid work, housework, and also worked at the factories.

  Dr. Necochea: When you were young, can you tell me a little about the people who are most influential to you? Relatives or friends, or in church?

  Dr. Lloyd: Okay. Most influential people to me, basically, like you said, people from my church, and also my teachers, my high school teachers. Also, my middle grade teacher. I remember a young man named Mr. MacDonald. He was my seventh-grade teacher, and he inspired me quite a bit, from the standpoint that I started doing well in my class when he encouraged me to continue to study.

  Also, when it came to church, there was a lady named Ms. Lola Loat. She had a clerical, BTU, Baptist Association, and she would take the kids on Sunday afternoon and teach them things like ethics, and just things in general about life.

  Dr. Necochea: Mm. Wow, cool. Did you know any physicians when you were young?

  Dr. Lloyd: No, I did not. Funny you ask me that question. I did not know any physicians when I was growing up, but what happened, as a kid, I had asthma. And there was one Black doctor, but I think he died. But anyway, by having asthma and 10-pound heavy, severe attacks, in that time, I only received a lot of home remedies, things like, what they call? Poster, think, put snuff, big sacks, something like a cloth, and heat it up at night, put it on my chest, and it seemed to have helped.

  But basically, there were no Black doctors, that we鈥檙e aware of. But my father told me, at one time, years ago, that I did have an uncle that was a doctor, but I never met him, or knew anything about them.

  Dr. Necochea: When you finished high school, you mentioned that there was an opportunity for a scholarship from the Air Force to take advantage of that, then go to college. And did you consider any other options after high school, besides going to college?

  Dr. Lloyd: No. Back in those days, only two things. You’re going to college to be a preacher or teacher. Those were the only things that I came in contact with. So, what you see, most of the time, what you wanna do. So, for me, I thought about being a teacher. But back in my mind, after my father taught me about having a great uncle, about being a doctor, I thought, well that鈥檚 a possibility, but way back in my mind. Not a reality, at that time.

  Dr. Necochea: Uh-huh. Let’s get into that. I’m curious about going from, maybe something in the back of your mind, to a real possibility. I imagine that happened during college?

  Dr. Lloyd: Yeah, during college. I did very well in my college courses, and to the extent that a couple of my professors was trying to get me to go into English. And end up going to English, and I was doing well in science and English So, I thought about it, I kept thinking about it. My freshman, second year, in the 鈥� I considered things, still, in the back of my mind, about medicine. And also, I鈥檓 thinking about English. I said, well, I don’t know if it鈥檚 possible for me to do that. I said, best thing for me to do is stay with the science courses, and so, what I decided to do.

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. Tell me a little bit more about your experience at Fayetteville State. What did you like the most? What did you like the least? Who was a big influence for you?

  Dr. Lloyd: Okay. Well, the most 鈥� thing about Fayetteville State, when I got there, and being from a small town, I didn’t realize that there was a place like this where, for me, from back in my hometown. During the summer when I’m not allowed to go up into large cities to work, I worked in tobacco because my grandfather had a farm.

  But anyway, I got there, I said, this is a [inaudible] [00:9:46] job from the standpoint 鈥� it had steam heat, showers, so forth. Where I came up, I had to cut 鈥� we had to get wood at night, my father to start the fire in the morning for us. But we always had wood, any we didn鈥檛 have hot water like the showers at college. So for me, that was amazing. I鈥檓 like, this is really good living. I could do this forever, from the standpoint. You go to the dining hall, you have breakfast, then you come back and go to class. You get more time off.

  So, for me, I said, this is really the life. I could鈥檝e gone to college forever. My job at Fayetteville State was, as a work-study, my job was to feed the animals in the Biology building. That was part of my work-study, and I also got a scholarship. That’s how I got through.

  And at Fayetteville State, I had several instructors that encouraged me to go on to, not so much the medical school that 鈥� to go onto graduate school once I finished at Fayetteville State. But what happened after finishing Fayetteville State, Fayetteville State, at that time, had just changed over from a teacher’s college to a university. So, I had a teaching degree and did student teaching.

  And so, I taught one year, a small town in Columbus county called Whiteville, North Carolina. Outside the city was a community called Mount Olive. I taught there one year, saved my money, did not buy a car, and back then, they were really cheap. I had a whole apartment, furnished apartment, for $65.

  Dr. Necochea: Wow.

  Dr. Llyod: I did not buy a car, so I had to 鈥� I rode to work with a colleague. He charged me, I think, about, something like $130 a month to ride to school with him. And so, that year, I walked and saved my money, and went to North Carolina Central University. There, also, I had a scholarship, and also, I had a work-study. And my work-study there was teaching the labs to the freshmen students that came in. And I got a degree.

  After two years, I had a degree in molecular biology from North Carolina Central University. From there, I went to Livingstone College. And this is 1968, then. I went to Livingstone College, and there, I taught two years, and taught biology there, biology and math, at Livingstone College.

  My first year at Livingstone College, 1968, it paid me $7,200. Next year, think they gave me a raise. It was something like $400. I sat and I said, gosh, I’m starving to death. I decided to go to 鈥� I said, definitely, I’m going to medical school.

  Dr. Necochea: When you started teaching and you first went to teach in Mount Olive, did you also teach biology there?

  Dr. Lloyd: Yeah, at high school, yeah, I taught bio 鈥� yeah, but high school, I taught everything. I taught biology, biology 鈥�

  Dr. Necochea: In high school?

  Dr. Lloyd: Yeah, when I taught at high 鈥� when I taught at, my first job at Columbus county, I taught biology, chemistry 鈥� biology, chemistry, what else? Physics, something 鈥� I think, maybe health science.

  Another interesting thing, too, about my family, we did not have a car in my family til I bought one when I went to Livingstone College to teach. That the first car in my family.

  Dr. Necochea: Wow. Who taught you to drive?

  Dr. Lloyd: I took driving education in high school. I didn鈥檛 have a car, though.

  Dr. Necochea: When you mentioned that you also went to NC Central, that was after you finished your degree at Fayetteville?

  Dr. Lloyd: Correct. I went there for two years. I got my degree in molecular biology.

  Dr. Necochea: So, it was a graduate degree?

  Dr. Lloyd: Correct. That was a master鈥檚 degree.

  Dr. Necochea: A master’s degree in molecular bio from Central, that鈥檚 鈥�

  Dr. Lloyd: Correct.

  Dr. Necochea: Were you already thinking, maybe medicine is the path for you, or were you thinking, I’m gonna be a teacher of the sciences?

  Dr. Lloyd: It, probably, was split. I think in the back of my mind, I checked, could I go on to get my PhD in medicine, or can I go to medical school? That鈥檚 why I teach at Livingstone, that gave me the idea, I’m probably, after teaching for two years at Livingstone, I started thinking about the MCAT. So, on the MCAT exam, I said, I think I鈥檓 gonna go to medical school, rather than get a PhD.

  Dr. Necochea: You know, you are the first person that I have interviewed for this project who had a substantial teaching career before going into medical school. What did you like the most about teaching? What did you like the least about it?

  Dr. Lloyd: The most I like, I like to see the students learn and progress. But to me, it was joy in teaching, because I had good teachers in science in my high school, and that inspired me to be a teacher. I like teaching so much that, like, I taught at Livingstone College and so forth. But all my years working at the VA, I taught the medical students, also, the course in radiology. And those that rotate through the veteran VA, I taught them, because I like teaching so much. Then, my [inaudible] teach, so I took it upon myself to do that. I like teaching.

  Plus, I had a teaching background. Gotta remember, when I finished Fayetteville State, I did the teaching program, as well as the science program standpoint. I did student teaching. So, I actually went out in the classroom for six weeks before I got my degree. That鈥檚 why you call it student teaching, and I did that. So, I had the degree in teaching. I took a national teacher examination before leaving Fayetteville State.

  Dr. Necochea: And help me get my timeline straight. What year did you graduate from Fayetteville?

  Dr. Lloyd: 1965.

  Dr. Necochea: And what year did you graduate from Central?

  Dr. Lloyd: 1968.

  Dr. Necochea: Uh-huh. And was that the year that you applied to medical school?

  Dr. Lloyd: Yes, that’s the year I applied to medical 鈥� no, I taught, Livingstone, two years. I applied to medical school, 1970.

  Dr. Necochea: Okay, yes. Right. Because you are 鈥�

  Dr. Lloyd: At that time, too, how that really helped me, I was at North Carolina Central teaching, that summer, in a Summer Science Institute for high school teachers. And the chairman of my department at North Carolina Central said, 鈥淐arolina is becoming more liberal, to the point that they鈥檒l probably, foremost, probably letting minority students in the medical school, and they’re looking for qualified people to apply.鈥� And that was my key right there. I applied right away.

  Dr. Necochea: What was the process like, to apply? Did you have to have an interview?

  Dr. Lloyd: Basically, I don’t recall having 鈥� I don’t recall having an interview. I think I just sent in the application.

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. You mentioned something, also, that’s important about the reputation that the School of Medicine at 黑料网 had at the time. It was a special year, where you heard that they were taking more qualified applicants who were not White.

  Dr. Lloyd: Right.

  Dr. Necochea: That was a change in 鈥�

  Dr. Lloyd: Right. 1970. Yeah. And matter of fact, they probably called the chairman of the department 鈥� they probably called the chairman. Problem is, with many of the small Black schools, and that’s, asking around. So, that’s how I happened to get the information because I was teaching there in December.

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. Did you apply to other medical schools?

  Dr. Lloyd: No, I just applied to Chapel Hill. That鈥檚 the only one I applied to.

  Dr. Necochea: Wow.

  Dr. Lloyd: But that time, there was no other information about other schools accepting minorities. And also, it turned to, I was looking at Meharry and Howard, but I didn鈥檛 wanna go out of state in the same year. And that came through, about Chapel Hill accepting minorities, that was for me. I didn’t wanna leave the state. Because I planned to come back to the state to practice, anyway. So, I said, I鈥檒l just go to Chapel Hill.

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. Do you remember, when you applied to 黑料网, if there were any enrichment program is for prospective Black medical students? Like, we have the MED program now.

  Dr. Lloyd: Right. No, they did not have a program like that. They just started to ease up later on. No, they did not have a program, a similar program you could go to.

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. Can you imagine what you would鈥檝e done if you hadn’t gotten into 黑料网?

  Dr. Lloyd: What was the question?

  Dr. Necochea: What would you have done if you hadn’t gotten into 黑料网?

  Dr. Lloyd: I would apply to other medical schools, and found about it, if I hadn’t gotten into the medical school, especially in 鈥� oh, I did get accepted at East Carolina that time, but East Carolina had a two-year medical school. They didn’t have a four-year medical school back in the 鈥�70s. So, they accepted me. But that was out. I was not going to a two-year medical school, then have to transfer to Chapel Hill.

  But if I hadn鈥檛 got in Chapel Hill or East Carolina, I鈥檓 sure I probably was going out of state, tried to get in Meharry or Howard. At that time, I didn鈥檛 know of any other schools that were accepting minorities.

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. Okay, so, now you are into the 黑料网 as a first-year student. Do you remember how many people there were in your class?

  Dr. Lloyd: I think it was approximately 100 students in my class. No more than 125. I think it was 100 students. And out of the 100 students, 10 of us were Black. And all of us were from North Carolina.

  Dr. Necochea: Uh-huh. What was it like to be one of the few Black people in your class?

  Dr. Lloyd: It felt strange. I think they felt strange at first. The thing is, you’re there for a purpose, and you have to hit the ground running in an institution like that. And there was some orientation periods because we had a 鈥� all students had advisors. And I can remember, my advisor told me, personally, that, 鈥淐larence, I don’t know how you got here, but thing is, now you are running with thoroughbreds. You may have been running the donkeys before, but now, you running with thoroughbreds, so. And you, probably, may be able to catch up with some of the thoroughbreds, but looking at where you came from, it gonna be a grind.鈥� He told me that upfront.

  I even had one of my classmates tell me that, his advisor told him he shouldn’t be there. But he don鈥檛 see why Chapel Hill switched over to taking minorities in.

  Dr. Necochea: Wow. And the feedback that you got from your advisor was, I mean, only slightly kinder, it sounds like.

  Dr. Lloyd: Say what, now?

  Dr. Necochea鈥� What your advisor told you was, I mean, a little bit like that, also?

  Dr. Lloyd: No. He didn鈥檛 tell me 鈥� he just told me this, what I told you about. No, I鈥檒l probably do okay, but I鈥檓 equal to the other students, because I’ve been running with donkeys. Now, thoroughbreds.

  Dr. Necochea: Oh, I see. Running with thoroughbreds. Got it.

  Dr. Lloyd: Yeah. See, a thoroughbreds鈥� a special breed of horse. They breed them to do well and run fast. But he was looking at my educational background compared to other schools that kids came from, Duke, Carolina, Davidson, and a lot of students from out of state.

  And the comparison that he made, to a point, I could see his point. Because I noticed that the students from Davidson, all of them did real well that freshman year. I got to be friends with several of them. They had already read the textbook for the whole year before they even got to medical school. I didn’t have the textbooks. And they led the class.

  The Davidson students did real well. They were almost a year ahead, at least a year. Because they already read all the textbooks or had them beforehand, something. Or maybe, they鈥檇 been taught, that last year at Davidson, I’m not aware of it.

  Dr. Necochea: Just, before I forget, how did you finance your studies at 黑料网?

  Dr. Lloyd: Believe it or not, scholarships and loans, all the way. Yeah, scholarships and loans.

  Dr. Necochea: The loans are, yeah, they are a big part of how students finance themselves these days, for sure.

  Dr. Lloyd: There’s a National Fellowship, think out of Chicago. They give student loans.

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. Who are you closest to, in your medical studies? Including students and faculty and administrators.

  Dr. Lloyd: Naturally, I was 鈥� I know, closest to several of my colleagues in my class, both Black and White. And then, my advisor, he was originally from the New England area. So, he appeared to be more liberal and more helpful by trying to tell me to, you got to stay on top of things. Don’t get behind.

  And the dean, at the time. I forgot the dean鈥檚 name, but even the dean, from time to time, I taught with the dean.

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. And among the students?

  Dr. Lloyd: Pardon me?

  Dr. Necochea: Among the students, who were you closest to?

  Dr. Lloyd: Let鈥檚 see. Naturally, I was close to Graham. It was another 鈥� not another school. I was over 27 when I started med school.

  Another fellow, right next to my same age, but he had done other things like research at [inaudible] [00:26:27]. I was close to him. We always communicate, being older. I would say, I was close to him.

  Dr. Necochea: What was the hardest thing to do as a medical student?

  Dr. Lloyd: The hardest thing to do is the 鈥� my advisor told me that, now, you鈥檙e running with thoroughbreds. I found out that you really have to be cognizant of your time. Stay on top of things, and study. You have to give up a lot of things in medical school. [Inaudible] background is, I just had to give up a lot of things. That’s just the things that we do ordinarily, like socialize and so forth. I taught at Central, so I knew people in Durham, so forth. But into a point, I stopped going to Durham.

  Dr. Necochea: As you were moving on through your studies, did you ever doubt your own abilities as a student?

  Dr. Lloyd: No. Never doubted. My attitude was that, now, I鈥檓 here. They鈥檇 have to kill me. I’m not leaving. And also, my attitude has just been, throughout life, this is a jail sentence. You don’t get off with good behavior. You gotta do all your time. That was my philosophy, so, it鈥檚 how you make it.

  Dr. Necochea: Did you enjoy it, the training in medical school?

  Dr. Lloyd: After the first two years, I did, because after that, you鈥檙e doing the clinicals. And plus, you鈥檙e going to other small towns, doing rotations. You had to go to Charlotte, Raleigh, places like that. So, it became better, I guess because of the changing environment.

  Most places that I went, they actually were surprised to see Black medical students. And when I told them I was from Chapel Hill, that was another surprise to them, Chapel Hill.

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Speaking of that, going into places where they might not have been used to seeing a Black medical student, can you tell me a story about a time when you either felt unwelcome, or where you felt like you didn’t belong?

  Dr. Lloyd: I never felt like I didn’t belong, but you always 鈥� the different places, I felt uncomfortable because the fact, they probably didn’t want me there, but never that I didn’t belong there, in my rotations.听

  Basically, if we鈥檙e not 鈥� not feeling, not belong there, but some incidents, I鈥檝e had an intern, resident, and stuff like that. For example, I did a rotating internship. I remember when I was in Wilmington, and I was on call one night, and they said they couldn鈥檛 get an IV started. We said, when the doctor comes, start the IV. So, I go to the patient room to start an IV, taking off my white coat, I was looking at this lady鈥檚 arm, she was White, and had her arm, I鈥檓 looking at her arm. And then, all of a sudden, the nurse came in and said, 鈥淏oy, what are you doing?鈥� I put my white coat back on, nothing else was said.

  Another incident, this is private practice, especially the ones, seem like, all them private practices. But anyway, another incident, resident. I was on call in the ER room that night, and a doctor came down and said he wanted to look at the film, say that鈥檚 the tech. Where鈥檚 the radiologist? And the tech said, he sitting there in the room, right there. About to walk in, he looked at me, then walked back out. Said, 鈥淚 don鈥檛 see a doctor, I see a Black man shuffling floors.鈥� Walked back, said, 鈥淭hat鈥檚 him, that鈥檚 Clarence, he鈥檚 the radiologist.鈥� And that was odd.

  One incident, I鈥檓 coming for a colleague of mine that I met after [inaudible] [00:31:20] summertime. He told me that what I鈥檓 coming for, I think it was on a Saturday. So, I check in my office and the tech showed where everything is. I go down to the small town, the [inaudible]. I go into his office, put my coat down, and the stuff I had. And the radiology tech said, if you want some refreshments, any drink, go down to 鈥� there鈥檚 the ER, has a big fridge, you can get anything you want out of there.

  So, I walked down and got my white coat. It was in the refrigerator. And this ER nurse, 鈥淲hat are you doing? You aren鈥檛 supposed to be back here. Who told you to come back here? And who are you, anyway?鈥� I did not say anything. I went back to the radiology department, got my white coat, put it on and came back, nobody said anything.

  Dr. Necochea: The power of the coat.

  Dr. Lloyd: That鈥檚 right, white coat. White coat. Especially after being a radiologist, I would go in a room and do a procedure, and they would see me, and some of the time, they have asked for a White radiologist, and they think the technician鈥檚 the doctor, not me. That鈥檚 even in my later life, in VA.

  Dr. Necochea: Can you tell me about a time when, as a student, as a medical student, when you asked for help?

  Dr. Lloyd: From what standpoint?

  Dr. Necochea: You know, if something was difficult, in learning something, and you needed to acquire that knowledge, or if there was some difficulty arranging some, I don’t know, a rotation, for example, and you needed to help to get it sorted out.

  Dr. Lloyd: Basically, they had that covered, as far as the courses in [inaudible]. But I can remember going to the pathologist at Chapel Hill named Dalgoff. I remember seeking out his help about certain things. Of course, I was rotating through with him.

  Also, you say you鈥檙e gonna interview Bob Reddick, who worked in the pathology lab before he got into medical school, and then he decided to go to medical school. But he even know Dalgoff. And so, sometimes we鈥檒l confer to him, as well. He had been working there for a few years, in pathology. He knew a lot of stuff.

  Dr. Necochea: Cool. You mentioned earlier that, as a student in medicine, you had to give up things in order to do the work, to have the time to do the work right and to keep up with your studies. And I’m wondering, with all that hard work, what kept you steady, in pursuit of your degree? Any people that were especial in your life, or hobbies, or sources of inspiration that helped you stay the course?

  Dr. Lloyd: The basic thing is, fear of failure, that I can do this. And if anybody else can do it, I can do it, too. So, whatever it takes, I’m doing it. And like I said, cut out things. There was like, for example, the only time I probably, after a while, I started medical school, depends on where you come from. You either got to catch up, or at least try to stay up. But I just had it cut out there.

  The only time I鈥檇 take off would be, probably a couple hours on Saturday and a couple hours on Sunday. But other times was all medicine. Before that attitude, I would go to Central, hang out with some friends, staying up late, do this and that, but then I started seeing how difficult it was. I had to cut it out.

  Dr. Necochea: Wow. If you are 鈥� now, I’m thinking towards the end of your studies in medicine. Tell me a little bit about how your interest in radiology came up.

  Dr. Lloyd: Fourth year, I鈥檓 in a little group of colleagues of mine, and people trying to decide what they wanna do. A lot of my colleagues had already decided. I remember having a colleague, White colleague who was in my group, he鈥檚 from a town not far from me. As a matter of fact, 22 miles from me. He from Washington, North Carolina, I was from Williamston. And he knew he was going to pediatrics, because his mother was in pediatrics, the father was in pediatrics, the grandfather, a pediatrician. So, he knew that, and he鈥檚 a pediatrician now, and all his kids are pediatricians in Goldsboro.

  So, all of them seem to have had a background for where they wanna go, and your own parents, some medical field, not both parents, at least one parent. So, it was an old White colleague in my class. He was in my group. And gosh, but anyway, I asked him what he gonna do. He said, 鈥淚鈥檓 going into radiology.鈥� And I said, yeah. I said, 鈥淲hy radiology?鈥� 鈥淢y father radiologist,鈥� and he said, that鈥檚 a field that was up and coming, that 鈥� and my father is home, most of the time. He don鈥檛 be in the hospital all late at night, this and that, and he plays golf, and this and that. I said, I want the same kinda life.

  And he said, I鈥檓 old, I don鈥檛 wanna be going through all that grand bull, late hours. I wanna enjoy myself. And I said, I鈥檓 old, I鈥檓 the same age you are. I was 31, then. I said, okay, I may look at that, too. He said, 鈥淐larence, there are no Black radiologists.鈥� What he told me. I said, 鈥淚 didn鈥檛 know that.鈥� He said, Black people go into Family Practice and Internal Medicine.

  So, I thought about it, and I was at Chapel Hill. So, I rotate through the radiology department, and Dr. Scatliff was the chief of radiology at the time 鈥�

  Dr. Necochea: Jim Scatliff?

  Dr. Lloyd: You know Dr. Scatliff?听

  Dr. Necochea: Yes.

  Dr. Lloyd: So, I鈥檓 gonna talk about Scatlif. I rotate 鈥� matter of fact, I was in radiology, as well, because I talked to him, and I think I rotated through radiology twice. Dr. Scatliff, and also, [inaudible] person there. I can鈥檛 remember his name, but he went down to Florida. He left and went to Florida. So, Dr. Scatliff stayed there.

  So I said, I gotta be friends with, Scatlif. I wanna go into radiology. And Dr. Scatlif, he had a deep voice, 鈥淲ell, Clarence, I don鈥檛 know. I don鈥檛 know about that. I haven鈥檛 seen a lot of Black folks,鈥� he said the same, 鈥淏lack folks in radiology.鈥�

  But anyway, at that time, they just switched over there. As a medical student, you can start radiology right away. You didn鈥檛 have to do internship, anything. And they were taking a few students. So, he said, 鈥淐larence, I tell you what. You go do a rotating internship, then call me back.鈥� I said, okay, Dr. Scatlif.

  So, I did a rotating internship in Wilmington. After a year, Scatliff, I didn鈥檛 even call, I didn鈥檛 apply at Chapel Hill, call Scatliff. I did a rotating internship. I applied to two schools, Wake Forest and Duke, and Wake Forest responded back first, and I accepted that. But Duke also accepted, but I had already committed Wake Forest, and I didn鈥檛 apply back to Chapel Hill.

  Dr. Necochea: So, when you went to Wilmington to do your rotating internship, you did that as an intern at Wake Forest?

  Dr. Lloyd: I did a rotating internship at Wilmington, after leaving medical school. And then, I went to Wake Forest for my radiology degree, resident. I did a rotating internship in Wilmington from 鈥�74 to 鈥�75. And then, I did radiology at Baptist.

  Dr. Necochea: Okay. So, and Wake Forest, then, back to the Raleigh area. Well, how long was a radiology residence, back then?

  Dr. Lloyd: Back then, you could do 鈥� the minimum was three years, and then you could do a fellowship for one more year, four years. But now, it’s almost, it鈥檚 six years now.

  Dr. Necochea: Yes. What was the process like, to apply to radiology residence?

  Dr. Lloyd: With application and interview, for that. Because I went through both Winston-Salem and Durham for the interview, and the professors at Wake Forest, they were surprised to see me, as a minority, be there for radiology. And then, I guess they wanted to have some minority programs. But then, three or four days, I got back, I heard from them, and they said they would accept me. I was surprised about that.

  But when I went to Duke for the interview, the chairman of the department was not there. But other people interviewed me, and by, I guess, about two or three weeks, I heard from them, but the chairman wanted me to come back so he could talk with them both. I refused to go back. I already accepted Wake Forest.

  Dr. Necochea: At Wake Forest, how many people were in your cohort of residents?

  Dr. Lloyd: At freshman year, think it was six of us.

  Dr. Necochea: Were you the only Black person?

  Dr. Lloyd: Yes. That’s why I had a problem that, I guess, the ER rotation of that first month. But somehow the first month, they put the freshman radiologist on the ER rotation. No one had seen a Black radiologist in the emergency room, that鈥檚 why it felt 鈥� they didn鈥檛 recognize me. They didn鈥檛 think I was a radiologist.

  Dr. Necochea: So, you were the first Black person to ever do a radiology residence at Wake Forest.?

  Dr. Lloyd: Correct. I’m the first Black person, probably, born in North Carolina who became a radiologist.

  Dr. Necochea: Wow. That sounds likely. That sounds very likely.

  Dr. Lloyd: Sound what?

  Dr. Necochea: That sounds very likely.

  Dr. Lloyd: Yeah, yeah. To be born, and stay in, becoming a radiology, yep.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah. Wow. Quick sidebar, I love working on this project and finding out that many of you were the first to do anything.

  Dr. Lloyd: You know, on my phone, I can鈥檛 see your 鈥� can you see my face?

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah.

  Dr. Lloyd: I can鈥檛 see you. I got a thing set. This meeting is being recorded. Do I need to hit something?

  Dr. Necochea: No, no. I’m recording it.

  Dr. Lloyd: Okay. Okay, you can see me, but I can鈥檛 see you.

  Dr. Necochea: Oh, you can’t?

  Dr. Lloyd: What I need to hit?

  Dr. Necochea: Is there something in your 鈥� I thought you were able to see me. I mean, maybe, on your phone, is there a button that would allow you to turn your camera on, to turn my camera on?

  Dr. Lloyd: I got it on. Only thing I see, I see two choices, leaving meeting and got it. Which one do I hit?

  Dr. Necochea: Oh, no, don’t leave the meeting.

  Dr. Lloyd: Right, right. I鈥檓 gonna hit 鈥淚 got it鈥� then, okay?

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah.

  Dr. Lloyd: Oh, yeah, now I can see. Yeah, okay, yeah, I can see you now. Got it.

  Dr. Necochea: Hey, hello, Dr. Lloyd.

  Dr. Lloyd: It went out.

  Dr. Necochea: That’s funny. Back to this neat story. So, being the first African American person to do one thing or another in this state is a common experience for many of the people who are classmates of yours.

  Dr. Lloyd: Yes. Back in 1970, this state, everything was segregated. It鈥檚 just like, a dividing line. Everybody knew their place. Like for my hometown, we didn鈥檛 go to certain areas, they didn鈥檛 come to certain areas, unless you were downtown. But otherwise, no. It鈥檚 just that simple. That鈥檚 the way we were brought up, so it didn鈥檛 matter.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah. Let me ask you something else about your residency training. You mentioned that when you were thinking about applying to radiology, you liked the idea of the lifestyle of radiology, and I was wondering about the actual work of learning radiology. Did you like that, as well?

  Dr. Lloyd: You said, did I like it?

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah.

  Dr. Lloyd: What was the question again? Repeat the question.

  Dr. Necochea: Did you like learning about radiology?

  Dr. Lloyd: Yes. For some reason, to me, radiology seemed to be a field that you could grasp because it鈥檚 visual. You don鈥檛 have to memorize anything. It鈥檚 like kissing your grandmother with snuff in her mouth. You鈥檙e gonna remember that. You know that鈥檚 your grandmother. But you see a picture, for some reason, it would click in my mind.

  Dr. Necochea: That鈥檚 funny. Yeah, it’s something that is memorable.

  Dr. Lloyd: Yes. Not like me, if I decide to go into college, all I got, remember all those little squiggle lines on a EKG, what it stand for. A picture, you know, 1,000 words.

  Dr. Necochea: I get it. Yeah. Do you remember something special about being a radiology resident, that maybe 鈥� yeah, tell me about something that stands out in your training.

  Dr. Lloyd: Stand out鈥� being a Black resident at Baptist and wanting to do well. So, I noticed that each year, I was a freshman in radiology, and I had to be on call. One weekend, I noticed that the senior radiologist residents coming in one morning. I wanted to know why, so I asked one of them. They said they was coming in for a review, getting ready for the boards.

  And so, when they went to the class to go do this, I would be in the class also, and I would just sit in the back and just listen to this. And I did that for several times through the year. So when they came with a lot of those questions, I already knew them.

  Dr. Necochea: Nice.

  Dr. Lloyd: Yeah. And that helped me quite a bit. It just propelled me to do well, from the standpoint that, I gotta pass the board, so that helped me.

  Dr. Necochea: Exactly. Tell me a little about your teachers, your mentors, in the radiology residence.

  Dr. Lloyd: Well, all those professors that got books out, papers out, especially on a college level. But one thing that’s memorable about me at Baptist, I think by my second year, they had to hire some new faculty members, and they came from South Africa. And I remember real well Dr. Freeman and Dr. Kline. And the thing I remember so well was that Dr. Freeman was chairman of the GI department, and he was GI and pediatric radiologist.

  I was in rotation, and we were reading out one Saturday morning. We had just met, and he said, 鈥淐larence, I don’t have anything against you, but I just don’t like Black people sitting close to me.鈥� He just told me that, point blank. So, we kinda sit apart, but a White student would sit up front. But I鈥檓 the resident, I gotta dictate the cases. [inaudible] allowed to dictate it. So, I thought it was strange, but鈥�

  Another incident with the South Africans was with Dr. Kline. He was real nice. He said, 鈥淐larence, looking at your background, looking at your record, you鈥檝e done well at Baptist, in this program.鈥� He said, 鈥淭he reason I left Africa, because this thing was taking over, I had to leave the country, and I couldn鈥檛 take a whole lot of wealth. He said, once you finish, you could go to Africa. I got some land, I got some land, I give you that. I said, you must be crazy. I didn鈥檛 tell him that, though. I said, 鈥淣o, sir. Thank you.鈥�

  Dr. Necochea: So, he offered for you to go to South Africa to 鈥�

  Dr. Lloyd: Yeah, said he had a large farm, so many thousands of acres, something over there. He said, I could give it to you.

  Dr. Necochea: That’s quite something.

  Dr. Lloyd: Believe it. The only thing, just leave out their names, though. Leave their names out.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah, I don’t know what to say.

  Dr. Lloyd: He could鈥檝e given me his [inaudible]. Before that, South Africa in an uproar, and they were forced to leave. So, they left a lot of their wealth. They go and take out so much out of the country, he said. That鈥檚 what he told me, anyway. He said, I got all this land, I could give it to you.

  Dr. Necochea: That’s amazing. And this is 鈥� well, it鈥檚 the late 鈥�70s, apartheid is still going on.

  Dr. Lloyd: Yeah.

  Dr. Necochea: Was there a, in residency, do you remember a special moment when you felt that you came into your own, as a doctor?

  Dr. Lloyd: Yeah. Like I said, I don’t know what other residents knew or not that I been sitting on those classes, the review board classes. So, when I became a senior resident, they have this big class where they have these groups, and they call the senior residents up and be asking them questions. And I shine above the rest of them, but I don’t think anyone knew that I had been going to those classes, except the professors. I knew that I was in the game, then.

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. That’s great. That is very nice. And even though, this, our interview, we mainly wanted to focus on your training as a medical student and as a resident, of course, your career is much broader, and it spans a few more decades.

  Dr. Lloyd: Yeah because I鈥檓 79. A lot of decades. Oh, and you can think about this. When I was in Chapel Hill, I rotated through psychiatry, and I remember two incidents in psychiatry. They were gonna give me a failing grade, or a low grade, in psychiatry, but nobody fails psychiatry, though. But anyway, I was on call one night at Chapel Hill, in psychiatry, and a couple brought their daughter in. And the chief complaint was, she was dating a Black male. That was the chief complaint.

  Dr. Necochea: What?

  Dr. Lloyd: That鈥檚 right. That was their chief complaint, and they admitted to the psych wards in Chapel 鈥� I couldn鈥檛 believe that!

  Another incident I remember from psychiatry is that I had a patient, and she had this thing about vomiting. She was vomiting all the time, and I had given this high dose of anti-vomiting medication, and she still kept on vomiting. And so, we got real close, and I would keep upping the dose, and we鈥檙e giving her more than the PDR recommended, and she didn鈥檛 stop vomiting. So, I thought something else was wrong with her. I started reading some abstract papers. They were saying a lot of things could cause it. And that鈥檚, for some reason, I home in on 鈥� she got a tumor in her brain.

  But back in the day, we didn鈥檛 have that. Because this is Chapel Hill, 鈥�74. So, we didn鈥檛 have this CT MRI scan for a head. Anyway, I rotated off the psychiatry department. And the dean called me and said, you got a real low grade in psychiatry. I said, what? What鈥檇 you do to anger the people over there? And I told them about the patient I had, vomiting. I said, I think she got something else. I think she just can鈥檛 help it. But anyway, said, you got a real low grade in psych.

  But anyway, I rotate off the service, and about six months later, the dean called again, and they had changed my grade in psych. The patient, they had an autopsy, she had a brain tumor. That saved me. That saved me.
  听
  Dr. Necochea: Wow, wow, wow.

  Dr. Lloyd: I know.

  Dr. Necochea: Before I ask you a couple of closing questions, I’m really curious about your transition out of medical school and residency and into the army. I can see from your CV that you were in active duty for, well, a good 鈥� over a decade of this, and I’m wondering how that interest came about.

  Dr. Lloyd: The army stuff, you mean?

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm.

  Dr. Lloyd: Okay, my first job after finishing Baptist, it was, I got a job in a real small town called Clinton, North Carolina. And they have a two year, they didn鈥檛 wanna be in the contract. Basically, they kicked me out, and they didn鈥檛 wanna give me contract. Kicked me out.

  So, and then, I knew [inaudible] and Wayland McKenzie, who were in my class. They were in Greensboro, and I told them, I鈥檓 looking for a job. So, they said, come on up here. We got our own hospital. Come up here.

  I came up here in a small minority hospital here, in Greensboro, where I am now. And while I was here, this fellow name George Kilpatrick, he had been in the army and stayed in the army, and now, working in Greensboro. Well, he said, 鈥淐larence, they need a radiologist down in [inaudible] [00:57:12]. Would you be interested in doing that?鈥� I said, okay, I鈥檒l help them do [inaudible]. I said, okay. So, he told me my [inaudible]. I said, oh, yeah, I can work that in my schedule.

  So, I started, I had signed for about six months. I signed on to do that, and then going once a month to Louisiana. Next thing I know, Desert Storm breaks out. God, I ain鈥檛 been down there six months.

  And so, I go in, train, this and that. But to make a long story short, how things are before black and white, I came in, they had brought me as a captain. So, I鈥檓 doing this, and I get shipped out for six months in Desert Storm. And it鈥檚 real dangerous over there, the Desert Storm thing. That鈥檚 when Saddam Hussain was over there, burned the oilfields in Kuwait and all that, etc. And I got a skin problem from that, being over there with the smoke inhalation, bombs, and things like that.

  Anyway, I made it back safely, back, and I stayed in. And I met the reserves unit one Saturday morning, and an administrator was going over my records. And they say, 鈥淐larence, you鈥檙e board-certified, had experience, etc. Why they bring you in as captain? They should鈥檝e brought you in as a major. They brought the rest in as a major, but they didn鈥檛 bring you in as a major.鈥� I said, I don鈥檛 know. I don鈥檛 know all the rules. He said, 鈥淵eah, they should鈥檝e brought you in as a major.鈥�

  And, so, I had already started already been starting to make the other ranks, because by then, by the time they caught us, 10 years later. And so, I think I was studying them, trying to make Lieutenant Colonel.

  But anyway, since they had, for 10 years, had not properly ranked me, and I鈥檝e already studied, I think I studied for either Lieutenant, Colonel. But anyway, I made Colonel, and by them not ranking me properly, I had some money coming to me, but I wouldn鈥檛 have known about it. So, the fellow that found it for me, I said, give it all to him. Because I wouldn鈥檛 have known. I would鈥檝e still had a low rank. So, I retired as a Colonel.

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. Wow. That’s impressive. What a story.

  Dr. Lloyd: And then, I go to the 鈥� you know the discrimination, you can鈥檛 let them upset you. And the best place, I found a lot of minorities were into [inaudible], everybody recognize rank. There鈥檚 no 鈥� you gotta respect rank. And I got shipped to Iraq. Then, I did six months, the Iraq war, too. I haven鈥檛 been to war, but I wasn鈥檛 supposed to go back.

  But anyway, they called me up to go to Iraq. I said, I did Desert Storm. They said, well, the person supposed to go was a female, she was pregnant, and she couldn鈥檛 go. The next person in line was male, and he was being treated for prostate cancer. And said, we should鈥檝e already have had somebody there, and you up next, as a radiologist. And so, and then, they called me on Friday. That next Friday, I was in Iraq.

  Dr. Necochea: Wow.

  Dr. Lloyd: I get there, no one is seeing me as a Black radiologist. So, I get there in one day. And my first day is along the chow line. I’m a Colonel, [inaudible] [01:01:18]. Anyway, this long line, probably to Franklin Street from you, this thin line, [inaudible]. And there was only four colonels over there, and I was one of them. So, I said, I鈥檓 not standing in line, I鈥檓 a Colonel. So, I walk past this long line. I could hear them cursing saying, 鈥淲ho this little, short 鈥�,鈥� calling me all kinda names. And then, I turn around and saw Colonel, everybody got quiet.

  Dr. Necochea: Uh-huh. It’s like when you show them your white coat, but in a different way.

  Dr. Lloyd: That鈥檚 right. Everything, what you got on, that鈥檚 true.

  Dr. Necochea: When you think about the span of your long career in Greensboro, in Salisbury, the army, what has your experience taught you about ways in which we can support our present-day minority students? What do you think we can do better?

  Dr. Lloyd: Okay, you already got one thing that’s been started for years, that summer program. That’s a big help, to get them orientated, because it’s a new environment, especially for students, depending on where they come from, especially if they come from a small environment. That鈥檚 a big help.

  The second thing is that a lot of the minority kids that you take in, they’re not gonna have the financial means to do four years. And now, medicine is really expensive. And so, you have to have it so that they get out of medical school, they don’t have this big debt, you know, that big debt, and then, you鈥檙e gonna go out and practice, borrow money to start the practice. That鈥檚 adding on more debt. So, that would be my first two things, the debt.

  I don’t know how the environment is now in Chapel Hill for the faculty. But back in my day, even some of the faculty members were not all onboard about taking in minorities or wanting to teach minorities.

  Dr. Necochea: On the latter score, I can say that things have changed radically for the better. But I know that this wasn’t the case in the 鈥�60s and the 鈥�70s, and it’s taken a whole generational change to do away with that. It’s been slow.

  Dr. Lloyd: Yeah. But I give Chapel Hill credit, though, being one of the first schools, close to the first school, to take in more, especially in the south. A lot of kids, they already have gone to schools in the north that鈥檚 for minorities, but to be in the south doing this, and leading the way, I give them credit for that.

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. Dr. Lloyd, if you think back over your whole career now, tell me two things that you are proudest of, please.

  Dr. Lloyd: Two things I’m proud of the most, when I passed the boards in radiology, number one, finally getting through all this stuff. And number two, I guess, giving the money to Fayetteville State so that there would be scholarships there, and how the money that I gave, have given to Fayetteville State, part of it gonna be for endowments, part gonna be for student scholarships, part gonna be for faculty improvement, and the other part gonna be for bringing in speakers.听

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. That was a very generous gift, by the way. It matters a great deal. It means a lot. I saw some of the news that were published about your gift, and I can see how grateful and appreciative they are 鈥�

  Dr. Lloyd: How much did they say I gave?

  Dr. Necochea: The last one, it said it was 鈥� well, the building alone, the construction, it says half a million dollars.

  Dr. Lloyd: No, I gave them a million dollars.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah. Okay, so, I’m only counting that part of the building. So, there’s more in addition to, wow. That’s major. Yeah. That is major. And, of course, they’re very grateful, and they have plans about how to use all that.

  Yeah, congratulations. I mean, it’s been quite a career in, yeah. I saw in there, one of your quotes about, good money management is a skill.

  Dr. Lloyd: That’s right. People don鈥檛 realize, this is America. Everything鈥檚 based on finance, capitalism. You鈥檙e not in some foreign country where everybody get the same. This is America, and if you don鈥檛 have finance, you gonna suffer in this country. And I tell young people, the first thing I read now is the Bible. The next thing I read about is money. I read radiology last.

  And I recommend two books you should probably read, they ask me about that. There鈥檚 two books that you should read: Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and also, The Richest Man in Babylon. Again, well, I鈥檝e been, really, been blessed to be able to give back, but the thing that I do, first and foremost, is I pay my tithes in my church, for sure. But the thing is, they can help you [inaudible] [01:07:52], you can’t have all these large, luxury items. What has helped me, for 21 years, I drove a Toyota Camry. I bought a 鈥�98 Camry, and that car was $300 a month. So, after I finished paying for it in three years, from then on, for the next 21 years, I kept that Camry, I put a $300 in the stock market.

  Dr. Necochea: Nice.

  Dr. Lloyd: And then, I would鈥檝e still had that Camry, but I wrecked it a couple years ago. Matter of fact, I had wrecked it, I didn鈥檛 plan on buying another car. I just need to get from point A to point B. If I鈥檓 going to West, I鈥檓 flying. But see, everybody else got to [inaudible].

  And I don鈥檛 have no problems with people having electric cars, but you can鈥檛 get one every two or three years, every four or five years, those electric cars, especially if you鈥檙e a average person. You鈥檙e not gonna have any kind of funds. So, that鈥檚 how I accumulate some of my stuff, by doing that.

  Dr. Necochea: That’s right. Thrifty values, and a Toyota that runs.

  Dr. Lloyd: That鈥檚 right. That Camry, when I wrecked it, I was in 13 miles from having 500,000 miles on it.

  Dr. Necochea: Wow. I’ve never got that far.

  Dr. Lloyd: Only problem I had with it, I think I had to put brake shoes on it, and I bought two batteries, and that鈥檚 it.

  Dr. Necochea: Wow. Did you drive a lot, though, for work?

  Dr. Lloyd: Yeah, because 鈥� you missed a part of my life. When I came from Clinton, the minority hospital, Black hospital here, closed. Gosh, it closed about two years after I got here. And it closed while I was in Iraq. When I got back, the hospital had closed. So, I didn鈥檛 have a job. And so, for almost 10 years, I did locum tenens, because I couldn鈥檛 get a job. No one would hire me. So, I did locum tenens at different places. Charlotte, Danville, anybody who wanted help, I did that.

  The thing was is that no one was used to seeing a Black radiologist. But everybody would give me work, and a lot of my colleagues that I knew, or went to med school with, or doing radiology, they would always say, 鈥淐larence, you could work for me a couple of weeks, or anytime.鈥� And that’s what I did, almost 10 years, until I got a job with the VA.

  Give you a good example, at the VA, finding a job at the VA, I called them because I got tired of doing the locum, I was traveling around. I could see all of them miles on my car. And it didn鈥檛 bother me, the travel, but I was getting older, and wanted a job, a steady job, a local job.

  So, I called the VA in Salisbury. I said, 鈥淒o you need any help?鈥� They said, 鈥淵eah.鈥� I went out for the interview, everything, and never heard anything back. I鈥檓 still doing locum tenens.

  I saw it was short again, I called down there, and they said, 鈥淵eah, we need some help.鈥� And then, I went in for another interview, and they didn鈥檛 call me back. So, two years 鈥� it lasted three years. I saw they鈥檙e still short of help. So, I call down there. And then, they got down to one radiologist. So, I call them. So he was the chief and everything else. So, I called in, I can鈥檛 remember his name. Anyway, I called in, and I said, 鈥淚 see you鈥檙e real short.鈥� He said, 鈥淵eah.鈥� I said, 鈥淚鈥檓 a radiologist.鈥� I said, 鈥淚 already have an application already there, and I鈥檝e been here for interviews.鈥� And I said, 鈥淎nd I鈥檇 like to have a job at VA.鈥� He said, 鈥淲ell, I can give you a job.鈥� I said, 鈥淏efore I come down, I鈥檓 gonna tell you, I鈥檓 Black.鈥� He said, 鈥淚 don鈥檛 care if you鈥檙e green, if you can read these films, come on down.鈥� That鈥檚 how I got the job at VA, and I stayed for 20 years.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah. In Salisbury, right?

  Dr. Lloyd: Yep. See, I live in Greensboro, but first, I was driving to Salisbury. Then, they got a clinic with some service that shortened my drive. And then, my last ten year to eight year, they built a outpatient center in Kernersville that shortened my drive.

  Dr. Necochea: Okay, cool. And you worked until 2019, right?

  Dr. Lloyd: Yep.

  Dr. Necochea: That’s a long, long career, Dr. Lloyd. Long.

  Dr. Lloyd: I know. I know. See, I started late. Thing is, being a minority, I didn鈥檛 have those plush jobs. So, I had to, but I was blessed to do the work I did.

  Dr. Necochea: Yes. You’ve done amazing work for a long time. That’s rewarding, too.

  Dr. Lloyd: Yeah. Because like I said, I like teaching. Like I said, if I hadn鈥檛 got an MD degree, I probably would鈥檝e gotten a PhD degree in a small, minority college, someplace.听

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. And go back to the teaching life.

  Dr. Lloyd: Yeah. Because like I said, I taught a residence at VA for however many years, residents and the nurse practitioners and the nurses, taught them radiology. So, I have a large teaching 鈥� I had a large teaching file, because I like teaching.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah, yeah. I do, too, very much, but I was very touched to learn that, early in your career, that this was the thing that first got you into the field, teaching others.

  Dr. Lloyd: The thing about it is that high schools, and teachers in general, they have shaken out a young man, and they don’t pay them enough money in schools, especially if you鈥檙e younger. In our high schools, schools in general, public schools, they don’t pay them enough money. That鈥檚 why you have so many charter schools.

  Dr. Necochea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree, completely. Yeah. And I mean, we can talk about this forever, but you’ve heard the numbers, that we are losing teachers left and right in North Carolina.

  Dr. Lloyd: Right.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah.

  Dr. Lloyd: See, the thing is, I don’t know why the 鈥� because the Republicans are controlling everything, basically, and our university system and school system, why they don’t wanna pay more money for teachers? That’s your future, right there. That’s how they keep people in the state. That’s how to keep good jobs coming here if you got educated people.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah. You will get no arguing from me on that.

  Dr. Lloyd: That’s why the Raleigh, Durham area is doing well, because they got all the, NC State, you got Chapel Hill there, North Carolina Central, all those small schools.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah, I know. I am going to close 鈥� stop the recording, I mean, now. Stop.

  [End of Audio]

  Duration: 76 minutes

   

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About

Dr. Clarence Lloyd was born and raised in Williamston, NC. He attended segregated schools and lived in a Black neighborhood growing up. He was the first person in his family to go to college, attending Fayetteville State, a historically-Black university, on a scholarship. The university environment was stimulating, and he started to consider both medicine and teaching as possible careers when he graduated in 1965. He taught science courses in Columbus county and, after a few years, attended North Carolina Central University, where he got a degree in molecular biology. In 1968, he began teaching biology and math at Livingstone College, another historically-Black college. After a couple of years of teaching, he decided to study medicine and applied to 黑料网 after hearing the institution鈥檚 policies had become more liberal toward the admission of African Americans. He recalls an advisor who told him he鈥檇 now be 鈥渞unning with thoroughbreds鈥� alluding to the intense preparation other admitted students had received. He especially enjoyed away rotations in small towns, where clinicians were not used to seeing Black medical students, and where he observed the prestige of wearing a white coat. His predilection for radiology arose from his relative ease apprehending imaging as a mode of understanding. After graduating in 1974, he applied to a residence program in radiology at Wake Forest, where he was the first Black person to train in that specialty. Afterward, he worked in Clinton and in Greensboro, NC, and then signed on as a physician in the U.S. Army. When Operation Desert Storm began, he shipped out to Iraq. He remained in the Reserves upon return and, ultimately, acquired the rank of Colonel, while working also at the Veterans Administration as a radiologist in Salisbury.