Quiara Shade
Class of 2025
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Interview Transcript
Dr. Newkirk: How do you pronounce your first name?
Quiara Shade: Quiara.
Dr. Newkirk: Okay, Quiara.
Quiara Shade: All right. So, today is Thursday October 13th, and I’m here with Dr. Cassandra Newkirk. Cassandra, is that right? Is that the correct name?
Dr. Newkirk: Yes.
Quiara Shade: Okay. And tell me where you are interviewing from.
Dr. Newkirk: Where I am interviewing from?
Quiara Shade: Currently.
Dr. Newkirk: (Laughs) I live in Boca Raton, Florida.Quiara Shade: Okay.
Dr. Newkirk: So, I happen to be home today.
Quiara Shade: Okay, great. So, just to jump right into the interview, tell me a little bit about where you’re from, where you were born, and a little bit about your family life.
Dr. Newkirk: I was born and raised pretty much between Burgaw and Wilmington, North Carolina. I am the oldest of two children. Both my parents were educators. My mother was a primary school teacher all her career, and my father was middle school teacher, and then he ended up being principal for more years than not. We lived in Burgaw, Kenansville, which is in Duplin County, and then we ended up in Wilmington, which is New Hanover County. So, I graduated from New Hanover High School. Um, yeah, so that’s the basics.
Quiara Shade: Did you move to Wilmington at a young age? Or did you move there –
Dr. Newkirk: No. Actually, I moved to Wilmington when I was starting ninth grade. Um so, but my father was always from there, so for a while they were building a house while we were in Duplin County. And so, we would go home on weekends. I really didn’t settle into Wilmington until I was in ninth grade. So, I finished high school in Wilmington though.
Quiara Shade: Tell me a little bit about what it was like growing up with your mom, and dad, and your two sisters.
Dr. Newkirk: One brother.
Quiara Shade: One brother.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. I am the oldest of two children, yeah, its yeah – my brother. Um, it was – I’d call it a quiet family (Laughs). It was all about school and really family. Most of my mother’s family, she had – a lot of them had moved away up north – and so she had her oldest sister [that] lived in the area. And she had, her oldest sister, had one child, and so I grew up with a lot of second cousins. My father’s family was pretty much not in the area either, they had moved away, but my grandparents – my paternal grandparents – lived in Wilmington. So, like I said, quiet in a sense that not a lot we did with grandparents, so mostly what we did was parents, and you know, summer vacation, but everything was about parents.And we went to school with our parents for quite a bit at the same school, which was not a good thing ‘cause you were the teacher’s kid. (Laughs) So, that was not a pleasant thing. Yeah. You always had to be on your Ps and Qs ‘cause you were the teacher’s kid, and then for a while we were actually at the same school where my father was the principal, that was even worse.
Quiara Shade: (Laughs) Yeah, I can imagine.
Dr. Newkirk: So that was – yeah, that was worse. I don’t know if I’m stepping on anybody’s toes, but I guess it’s like being a preacher’s kid. (Both laugh)
Quiara Shade: So, did they both follow you both throughout your entire primary [education]?
Dr. Newkirk: Um, First, second, and third grade I went to the same school where my mother was the teacher. So (laughs), middle school we went to the same school where my mother taught, and father was principal. And so, finally it’s like “look, high school,” [and I] finally broke away. It was just like “Finally.”
Quiara Shade: Finally escaped.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. My brother had it a little bit better cause he was a couple years younger, so he was kind of away from the parents. So, he was kinda out on his own a little bit longer. But I say that because I think in terms of just being um – I wasn’t much of a social butterfly ‘cause it was always about what were people thinking. Although, Wilmington is much, much larger than what it was then, it was just a big town. And because I moved when I was a budding teenager, it wasn’t that easy. So, yeah it was just, I call it a quiet family, really traditional – holiday time. Going basically one vacation a year kinda thing, and usually it was to visit family, it wasn’t like now you go out and you do things. It was really more family – family visits kinda thing.
Quiara Shade: So, visiting like your paternal side in Wilmington.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah, yeah. So, doing, doing well in school was emphasized, so I did a lot of reading, so spent a lot of my spare time reading. Just reading was what I did.
Quiara Shade: What was your favorite genre –
Dr. Newkirk: Wasn’t in sports. I was in the band though. I enjoyed music. My brother had a natural ear for music, I didn’t, I was one who had to read the music. So, I didn’t get that gift that he got. (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: What was your favorite genre of book or is your favorite genre?
Dr. Newkirk: Mysteries.Quiara Shade: Mysteries?
Dr. Newkirk: I read – yeah – I read I think Sherlock Holmes entire collection when I was in high school.
Quiara Shade: Wow, wow.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. I remember that, that was – yeah Sherlock Holmes… in high school.
Quiara Shade: Great selection. I hadn’t read them, but I heard they are really good.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. And I haven’t picked it up since. (Both laugh)
Quiara Shade: It was one and done type of thing. Let’s see. Who was the most influential in your youth, and childhood, and how? So, any relatives, friends, people at church, schoolteachers.
Dr. Newkirk: Wow. Probably my first grade – I remember my first or second grade teacher – ‘cause when we went to school that was in Burgaw when I started. School was, school was next door, so I mean that was kinda, I jumped across the ditch, and I was at school. But probably my first and second grade teacher, the same teacher.And then, later on my – I had a ninth grade – I remember my math teacher, ‘cause I was coming in from rural school to the quote “city school of Wilmington.” She was the one – I got teased because I was quote “the country kid,” and that was the first year away from my parents at school. And I remember my math teacher, and she was saying, “Oh you can do it, you can do it.”
Actually, I excelled and got bored. Actually. (Laughs) But anyway.
Quiara Shade: Expected, expected.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. Anyway, so that was probably growing up… during those years. High school was a different thing ‘cause I was in high school during well, Affirmative Action, that was when Black students could choose to go to the White school. And so, I chose to go to the predominantly White school my 10th grade year. [I] had no – and I was ready to then transfer to the Black school the next year and they closed it – and I had no choice. And when they closed the Black school – ‘cause it was the Black and White schools when they closed the Black school – so nobody – so then it was totally integrated. And that was the year of the Wilmington, my 11th and 12th grade years. So, it was the years of the race riots.And I don’t know if you know the name Ben Chavis?
Quiara Shade: No.
Dr. Newkirk: Reverend Ben Chavis is still around; I saw him featured on – I think he was at NMA presentation. I’m like, “Wow” ‘cause Ben Chavis was very young then. And he was – came to town – and it was a lot of civil rights kinda meetings when we were in high school. So, I did get to go to those, so that was kind of a very interesting time. I remember wondering if I was gonna graduate ‘cause I walked out of class with a lot of other students. I happen to have been the president of the senior class at that time too, and walked out of class. And it’s like boycotting class (Laughs) my senior year in high school during the springtime when we were all trying to get ready for graduation and so. So yeah, it was very interesting but trying time ‘cause we had curfews, National Guard in the street, on, and on, and on. So, that was the late 60s. It was after MLK, and Kennedy assassinations, and then, so when all heck broke loose, pretty much.
Quiara Shade: That historical period. Would you say it was –Dr. Newkirk: Yeah.
Quiara Shade: – the first time that you experienced something to that extreme when you got to high school?
Dr. Newkirk: Probably to that “in your face.” I grew up in a very segregated environment, ‘cause when I talked about going to school, I had gone to Black schools. It was no predominantly Black. They were all Black, all the teachers, all the principals, everybody was Black. And so, it was very little going outside of our communities for any reason. So, when I moved to Wilmington, uh, see what did I get into? Parks and recreation, dance classes were integrated kinda thing and going to high school. So, by the time I finished, I think I was in the first group of the integrated group for the Azalea Festival in Wilmington. I don’t even know if they still have that.But they always had a teenage division, and they would have activities around town, but it had always been White. And I remember going to my White church, the first White church I had ever been to in Wilmington during that period of time. So, and I played in the – somehow, I got to do the unusual things, I was – I got elected president of senior class, and I played oboe in the marching band. (Laughs) I started out playing clarinet and ended up playing oboe in the orchestra.
Quiara Shade: (Laughs) Musical instruments coming in.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. So, probably that was a very influential time. And I will always remember my guidance counselor who was a White lady told me that, you know, “Well, what do you wanna do?” And I was looking into doing biomedical engineering, and she just kinda looked at me, and just said, “Oh, you’ll – you’ll never do that.” So and, that was, that was, as again, at the time of Affirmative Action, so I don’t know how many schools I applied to, but I ended up going to Duke. That’s where I did my undergraduate work.
Quiara Shade: Right, okay.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. And I did not – well, I was gonna say I didn’t enjoy myself, but it was a very trying time ‘cause I got to Duke the year after they had burned Duke Forest. And they had to sit-ins in the President’s Office, the Black students at Duke University. So, I don’t know how much of that history you know about.
Quiara Shade: I’m not too familiar with that. Yeah.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. Well, that’s an interesting Duke history ‘cause that was ‘cause I entered Duke in 2000 – I’m sorry – 1970. And I think it was ’68 or ’69, they had had a sit-in at the President’s Office at Duke, so we were very close knit –Quiara Shade: Right.
Dr. Newkirk: African American group. They started a Black Studies Department shortly before I got there. So, I was interested in doing biomedical engineering, but you couldn’t go to engineering school directly, you had to do a year [of] general studies, and then apply for engineering school. And I got interested and met a lot of Black students who were premed my first year, so that’s how I got interested in medicine. Kinda hanging out with the premed students – the Black premed students.
Quiara Shade: And they –
Dr. Newkirk: And ended up – yeah. Because I was – we were all interested in Black studies then, ‘cause that was a thing. [I] ended up doing a lot of Black studies courses. So, I ended up with – a Bachelor of Science in Black Studies is what I ended up with. (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: (Laughs) I have a similar story. I called myself minoring by accident, but just ‘cause I stumbled across a lot of courses in that.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. So, it was like – I enjoyed the collegial relationship, but it was kinda traumatic ‘cause it was you know, Duke was Duke, and it was not only a White school, it was a very – the majority of the White students who were there were children of alumni. So, very, very well-off financially, had come from lot of northern schools, northern prep schools. And so, coming in from the public schools of North Carolina – even though I went to a White school and did very well – that was no – that was really no comparison to the students that were coming in from White schools. So, it was kind of tough academically at Duke, and I really did not – so in that sense I did not enjoy academics.I went to – I think I went to one band practice. (Laughs) Okay, I’ll get in a band. And never went back, it’s like, “Oh this is the most boring band I’ve ever seen.” Absolutely not, absolutely not. So, I did – my extra-curricular activities at Duke were really the Black student whatever, we had a gospel choir, dance group. Yeah.
Quiara Shade: Sticking around that familiar community.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah, yeah. So that was – and I went to summer school two summers ‘cause I just wanted to get out, and just leave.
Quiara Shade: So, you went to summer school at Duke?
Dr. Newkirk: At Duke, yeah. So, I’m actually class of ’73 at Duke ‘cause I went to two summer – basically two summer sessions ended up being a year. And so, I had applied to medical school, did not – actually got into Meharry, and somehow never got the admission statement, so I didn’t go. (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: Really? So, they told you that you got in after you had already –?
Dr. Newkirk: No. They, they mailed the admissions announcement, but I think they sent it if I remember – they sent it to my college whatever address. But then I was gone, and I never got it. So, life is what it was supposed to be. And so, I don’t think I applied to that many places, but I had applied to Meharry. I had an aunt that worked in – she was head surgical nurse at Meharry Hospital. And so anyway –
Quiara Shade: So, let’s backtrack a little and go back to college. So, tell me how did you finance your college education at Duke?
Dr. Newkirk: My parents financed it.
Quiara Shade: Right. So, they helped you while you were there with like basic needs and things.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. Tuition, books, the whole nine yards. Yeah.
Quiara Shade: And you did talk a little bit about what kinda sparked your interest in medicine, with you hanging out with the premeds.
Dr. Newkirk: Well, yeah, and kinda I guess medicine – I don’t even remember why I got interested. But I was actually a – I was volunteer at the hospital when I was in high school. So, I had started hanging out at hospitals way back then.Quiara Shade: And that was your –
Dr. Newkirk: I think my junior and senior year in high school.
Quiara Shade: Was that your first exposure to –?
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, like I said, my mother’s sister was a nurse at Meharry Hospital, but there were no physicians in my family or anybody. When I was at Duke undergrad, I – one of my second cousins was actually in medical school at Duke at the time I was in undergrad, so he was probably the first. And like I said, he was a second cousin, we’d known each other all our lives, but we weren’t close. But we really didn’t have any other physicians in our family.
Quiara Shade: Right. Do you remember a family doctor or someone who influenced you at a younger age that you can recall?
Dr. Newkirk: I remember my family doctor, but I can’t say he influenced me. Yeah, yeah. I had Black – I had the same Black family doctor my entire life in Wilmington, ‘cause even though we were in Burgaw we used to go to Wilmington to go to the doctor. And there were two or three doctors – Black doctors in town.
Quiara Shade: And how far was that drive?
Dr. Newkirk: It was 20-25 miles.
Quiara Shade: Okay, so not long.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah, yeah. ‘Cause Wilmington was the big town, or small city. Burgaw was a little town.
Quiara Shade: Off to the edge?
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah.
Quiara Shade: Let’s see.
Dr. Newkirk: So, Burgaw would be like Rock Hill is to Charlotte. (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: Okay, okay. I get that comparison. (Laughs)
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. I figured you might.
Quiara Shade: Right, I got that one. Let’s see. Were there any enrichment programs for perspective Black medical students? Like for instance, currently has an MED program. Um so do –
Dr. Newkirk: I was – I was in the MED program.
Quiara Shade: Great, I was too! Yeah.
Dr. Newkirk: Well, yeah, MED has been around for a while, ‘cause it was around before I got there. So, yeah, MED has been around for a while.
Quiara Shade: Tell me about that experience with the MED program.
Dr. Newkirk: That was a phenomenal experience. Like I said, I – I ended up getting accepted at Carolina. There were what, 24 Black students in my med school class?Quiara Shade: Okay.
Dr. Newkirk: At that time, yeah, once we got started we had the dubious honor of having the second largest number of African American students in a predominantly White school in the county.
Quiara Shade: Wow!
Dr. Newkirk: Only University of Florida Gainesville had more, I always remember that. Yeah. ‘Cause we used to keep up with that through SNMA.
Quiara Shade: Yeah!
Dr. Newkirk: So yeah, there were about – so it was a very large group of us comparatively speaking at Carolina. ‘Cause I think maybe 120 first-year students all total and about 24-25 of us were Black.
Quiara Shade: Yeah. That’s a significant number.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was 1974. So, yeah. And one – we had a set of African American female twins.
Quiara Shade: Oh really?
Dr. Newkirk: Debra and Diane Scott. I don’t know if you guys have run across them, but that would be an interesting interview ‘cause Debra and Diane were twins. And they went – where did they go? Charlotte and then they ended up at Chapel Hill in med school.Quiara Shade: Okay.
Dr. Newkirk: And Debra – I think Diane ended up being the anesthesiologist, and Debra did pediatrics. Debra, I think ended up in Charlotte last I heard.
Quiara Shade: Really?
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah.
Quiara Shade: I’m gonna have to look into this.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. You’re gonna have to look through the archives. Debra and Diane Scott. Yeah.
Quiara Shade: Okay. Debra and Diane Scott.
Dr. Newkirk: So, that was fun for us. They were not identical (Quiara laughs) so we could tell them apart, but it was just kind of that unusual phenomenon to have twins.
Quiara Shade: Right to have twins be a part of –
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah, in your med school class. Yeah. So yeah, I was in the MED program, that was phenomenal. My roommate – trying to think did Gwen and I…I think we were roommates that summer. Whether we were roommates or not, we’re still best friends.
Quiara Shade: Aw. Did you meet that summer in the MED program?
Dr. Newkirk: Uh-huh yeah. And we’re still best friends.
Quiara Shade: How formative was that for you in either choosing Carolina or choosing any med school in particular?
Dr. Newkirk: That didn’t have – we didn’t – that was not promoted during the application period.
Quiara Shade: What wasn’t promoted? The –
Dr. Newkirk: MED.
Quiara Shade: MED Program. Oh, really?
Dr. Newkirk: So, that had nothing to do with the choice.
Quiara Shade: Ah, okay, okay.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah, no. We – I knew nothing about MED until I was accepted, and then they told us about the program.
Quiara Shade: Oh okay. So, you participated in the program after you were accepted to medical school.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. So, did they do it before now as –Quiara Shade: Yes.
Dr. Newkirk: – a summer premed thing?
Quiara Shade: Right. So, it kind of simulates –
Dr. Newkirk: That’s even better.
Quiara Shade: – their first year of medical school now. So, tell me about how it was for you. Like, what did it encompass if you did it after you started?
Dr. Newkirk: No, no, no. Not after it started. It was the – med school started what, that August? So, we were there like June and July.
Quiara Shade: Okay. So, it was like a pre-bridge.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah, right, yeah. So, that was the summer between undergrad and med school. But I actually ended up not getting into med school my first year out of Duke, so I ended up going to A&T for a semester.
Quiara Shade: Okay, yeah. Tell me about your med school application process and how you got to .
Dr. Newkirk: I don’t – that was traumatic. I don’t remember it. All I remember is when I didn’t get in, I realized I gotta have a plan A and a plan B. So, actually then I applied to the School of Public Health and med school the second time around. And I decided to go to A&T ‘cause I decided I needed a Black experience. (Laughs) So while I was waiting. And my brother was a freshman at A&T. It’s like, “I gotta get out of this White world. I need – (Laughs again) I need to go to some football – some real football games.”
Quiara Shade: The band! (Laughs)
Dr. Newkirk: Yes, yeah, yeah. So, I spent a semester at A&T, and then I went home that second semester, and I think I shortly got in. So, I just kinda hung around home, and waiting for the MED at that time just getting started, and then went. So, yeah, it was the summer before first year of med school.
Quiara Shade: Okay. So, at A&T you were taking science courses?
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. I was. I was taking science courses and really more premed, just to kinda keep up that interest. And so, yeah I did. Like I said, my brother was there as a freshman, so.
Quiara Shade: Great. And so, you landed at , tell me about your time at the School of Medicine here overall.
Dr. Newkirk: Actually, it was generally positive. It was – there were enough of us as – well I. The MED program I think what happened – because they always included the upperclassmen, usually the class right above you, so these were the students that had just finished first year. So, a lot of those folks became fast friends as well. The, I guess, the preceptors that were in the MED program. And so, Gwen and I lived out in the community. You know we had an apartment. We rented from down on Johnson Street in Chapel Hill. And we rented. The guy who owned these duplexes, and I think just about all of us were med students. So Friday evenings we used to have – Gwen lived on a farm, so we would go home. Her family would pack up the fish from the pond, her grandmother made scuppernong grape wine, and they would send us back with food.And my parents bought the little freezers, so we used to cook ‘cause we were just little old country girls. So, we used to cook, and we’d sit out on the stoop, and fry fish, and that was the Friday afternoon whatever. So, like I said, it was a small group of Black med students that lived in that area, so that was the Friday night thing to do.
Quiara Shade: If I was there, I would be on Johnson Street every time. (Both laugh)
Dr. Newkirk: So it was kinda interesting ‘cause it was like, well you know, we didn’t do too much – going to. And my roommate went to NCC, so she still had some ties over there. And she lived about an hour away. She lived out on the other side of Raleigh in Zebulon, that’s where her parents lived. So, actually I think I went home with her so much ‘cause it was so close that I still go to her family reunions. And – (Laughs) that’s just how close we got.
Quiara Shade: Y’all really sparked that true friendship in [multiple places].
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah, absolutely. We [recently] went to the grandbaby’s first birthday party, and I said, “Okay, it’s the girl’s weekend.” The kid was just, you know.Quiara Shade: Right.
Dr. Newkirk: A first birthday party is not for the kid. (Both laugh)
Quiara Shade: Right, it’s for the adults, definitely.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. I think it was really the upper class – so, like I said, the class above us – they became – we all became fast friends. And so then, it was our turn to, you know, be preceptors for the MED program. So it was just – that I can truly say that was – everybody took it very seriously. And it was – and pretty much I think just about all of us made it through.
Quiara Shade: Out of the 24 that started?
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. I remember, unfortunately, one young man hung himself.
Quiara Shade: Oh, no.
Dr. Newkirk: Committed suicide. And just about everybody else, I think, made it. And so, but it was just that support and the support systems that grew up around the upperclassmen even after the MED. We always called on them and I’m still friends with two or three of the upperclassmen, you know, class above me too because of that. So, we just always stayed in touch.
Quiara Shade: So, with that community with the upperclassmen and with your class, did you often think about the fact that you were a minority? Was that ever up close and apparent for you academically, or socially? Or was your community so closely knit that it never really came up?
Dr. Newkirk: Okay. Talk to me what you’re talking about. Because I think we lived in… Yeah, we were all in rounds and stuff together, but once we got out of the classroom and off the wards, it was like you went back to the community. And socially, it was almost all Black. We seldom mixed socially –
Quiara Shade: Yeah. So to be a med student –Dr. Newkirk: – with the White students.
Quiara Shade: The question is what was it like to be one of few Black people in your class? Did you often think about that fact? And if so, why?
Dr. Newkirk: Well having come from an integrated high school, I didn’t consider 24 few. That was a lot. (Laughs)Quiara Shade: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Newkirk: So to be few in number I didn’t seriously I didn’t – well, I take that back. I went to Duke when the numbers were much smaller, even though there was a reasonable large cadre, because that was undergraduate school. I felt more lost at Duke than I did in med school at Carolina. So the numbers – and then the numbers of the Black students in the class above us was large enough, not quite as large as ours but pretty large, that when we were together it was not like we were quote “few.” So, it’s interesting the way the question is posed. (Laughs) Yeah. We were this community within the larger community.
And probably the – if you were White and out-of-state at Carolina versus White and being in the state, or if you were Jewish, you may have had fewer connections than we had as Black folks.
Quiara Shade: Smaller community, yeah.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. If that makes sense.
Quiara Shade: That makes sense.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. And I think I remember only one or two of the African American students were from out-of-state, ‘cause almost everybody was from in-state. So, that was an interesting phenomenon. So, we all had – and we almost all came from public schools of North Carolina. So, in that sense, it was a reasonably homogeneous group.Quiara Shade: Yeah.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. With very similar experiences.
Quiara Shade: A good feeling of comfort and community then.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah, absolutely.
Quiara Shade: And still by the Friday functions. (Phone rings) Sorry. So, tell me – oh, go ahead?
Dr. Newkirk: No, go on.
Quiara Shade: Outside of your friend group and the people in the community, were you close to or who were you closest to at the School of Medicine? Faculty, administrators, anything of that nature?
Dr. Newkirk: Harold Wallace. Harold Wallace was – wait a minute. Was Harold at Duke or Carolina? Actually, I think he was at Duke and ended up at Carolina. Harold – And I’m blocking on if he was at Duke or Carolina. And also remember those two schools were so close together that it ended up being sometimes we would do some things together. And you know, I don’t remember if Harold was at Duke or Carolina. But it was kinda interesting, one of the things that Carolina was doing when I was there [is] that you had first- and second-year didactics. But you did first year… the afternoons are either pretty much self-study or you were in the lab.And when we would go to meetings, SNMA meetings and talk to our friends who went to other med schools, they were in class all day, and we had this weird different schedule. And so, that was always kind of a sense of, “Okay. What do I do with this?” But, you know, you’d gotten to the group, it was either afternoon labs, or self-study. A lot of self-study then. And then, second year was, if I remember, was pretty much the same. Third year, you could go, by this time you knew that what your upperclassmen were doing. And they allowed us to find other places to do rotations. So, we didn’t have to stay there at the university setting ‘cause that was pretty much tertiary center. They encourage you to get your, you know, find a primary care hospital or somewhere to do a rotation. So, that was exciting, ‘cause we had some of our colleagues to go overseas.
Quiara Shade: Oh wow!
Dr. Newkirk: And so, it also pushed us all to find. So, I did my OBGYN third year rotation at Meharry since I’d always wanted to go there anyway. So I did it at Meharry. So it was like staying in the door. (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: Full circle. (Laughs)
Dr. Newkirk: And I don’t even remember how I set it up, but they allowed us to find the spot, and just go. I did –
Quiara Shade: What year? This was for third year?
Dr. Newkirk: Third year, third year. And I remember I did a rotation at Charlotte, at the hospital in Charlotte. I did a rotation at New Hanover in Wilmington; I went home and did a rotation. So, that was fantastic.
Quiara Shade: Yeah. How was that going back home to do your [rotation]?
Dr. Newkirk: That was good. I was no longer – I mean I was – but they had – New Hanover Memorial was open to the med students, so they were used to having the med students come. So, I was just another med student, but I stayed at home. They actually had these apartments behind the hospital where the med students would stay in residence, ‘cause at that time that was also one of the rotation sites for some of their residents, especially their primary care. Their family practice residents would come and rotate, ‘cause that hospital was more of your big community hospital versus a tertiary center. So, I – we always thought that Carolina was in the forefront of just really creating doctors who were gonna work in the communities.And so, they exposed you to that pretty much. I remember the area health at the AHEC centers, Area Health Education Centers, that all were connected with the school, and so a lot of people did rotations. So yeah. That was just kinda fun. So in those settings you really, I think once I got out into the clinical settings, it was more normal to be with colleagues, whoever they were, and you know whoever you’re on a rotation [with]. So, everybody was pretty friendly, whatever, whatever, and you know, then once – most times everybody is going off to study and go to sleep anyway, ‘cause whatever. So yeah during that time. So, the one professor I remember or attending – he was the attending – I don’t remember whether it was third or fourth year, was Dr. Bryant.
And I think he just passed – No. Was it Bryant or O’Brian? And I think he just passed away in the last couple years, and they did a big, big thing. He was in his 90s.
Quiara Shade: So it’s so funny that you mentioned this. I think I was transcribing another interview, and I think that other interviewer mentioned him too and them throwing a big party for him.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. And I think I remember the party. But the reason I remember him, he was this older, well he wasn’t that old then, White gentleman. But I always remember he was very culturally sensitive then and I remember we were on rounds in the hospital. And the was a young – there was medicine. I think it was internal medicine. And there was a young lady, a Black woman, and they couldn’t figure out what was going on with her, and she was obviously dying, and nobody could figure out. They couldn’t find anything wrong with her. And the family – she and the family – kept saying that she was rooted, and she was rooted, but everybody thought that was weird. But I grew up hearing about roots.
Quiara Shade: Rooted?
Dr. Newkirk: Roots. Roots. That she has roots worked on her.Quiara Shade: Okay.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. I don’t know. Do you know anything about voodoo and roots?
Quiara Shade: Yes. I took a course in college but yeah.
Dr. Newkirk: Okay. So, that’s what I’m talking about. You know the residents, you know – this quizzical look on their face, and blah, blah, blah. And so, I always remember he said, “Okay. So, what’re we gonna do?” You know everybody is doing – and she was getting worse, and worse, and worse, but they couldn’t find anything obviously wrong with her. So, in the end, he allowed the family to bring in a witch doctor to take off the spell. She was still in the hospital, and that to me, was the most fascinating thing.
Quiara Shade: A White physician.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. And of course, she got better, and got up, and walked out of the hospital. (Laughs)Quiara Shade: Yeah? Yeah? (Laughs)
Dr. Newkirk: But at the time – and I don’t remember which came first – that I met Dr. Wilber Jordan, I always remember him through SNMA, he was an internist up in Massachusetts. A brother from Arkansas, whose father was a Haitian voodoo priest. And he lectured at the meeting, and told us all about how he fought, ‘cause he was expected to become a voodoo priest and healer as well, and he fought that ‘cause he was into western medicine. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he couldn’t get away from it, and so he ended up being – his father taught him everything he knew, and he ended up combining his traditional western medicine with his traditional voodoo practice. And that to me was the most fascinating thing.
So, and I don’t remember if I met him after the patient at North Carolina or vice versa.
Quiara Shade: Wow. So, he did a talk in a lecture on that?
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. But not at , the lecture was actually at SNMA. Or it was either SNMA or NMA was where I was exposed to him. But in a totally different setting. But I remember Dr. – and I’ll have to, I’m trying to think of his first name – it was either O’Brian or Bryant, but he exposed all the students to that. And he was just so matter of fact about it, it was like, you know, he understood the cultural stuff.
Quiara Shade: Yeah, yeah. Whereas in other situations–Dr. Newkirk: And I grew up–
Quiara Shade: I’m sure in other situations it wouldn’t have been handled that way.
Dr. Newkirk: Right. I just always – I think he was the person, and I don’t think I ever forgot that experience in terms of somebody being that culturally sensitive, especially a White guy. A middle-aged White guy.
Quiara Shade: I’m sure you carried that with you. It’s kinda like taking a step back sometimes and really recognizing the patient as a patient with, you know, family history.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. Well, I – when I was in training, I had the opportunity to actually, as a resident, we had a psych patient who – did you ever hear about the movie The Exorcist?
Quiara Shade: Yes. Yes.
Dr. Newkirk: Okay. This patient would do – she ended up doing all these strange movements and stuff on the psych unit. I trained at Grady in Atlanta, and I will always remember that. And we ended up so, I think I even brought it up, “Do we really think she’s got roots on her?” ‘Cause the meds weren’t working. And we allowed the family to come in and do whatever ceremony they wanted to.
Quiara Shade: Yeah. And what was the outcome?
Dr. Newkirk: And it was like. Huh?
Quiara Shade: What was the outcome?
Dr. Newkirk: She got better. But she had incorporated, I always remember, I forget what religion they were, but she had been shown a movie of what hell was like and she tripped out.Quiara Shade: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Newkirk: And when I heard the family explain it to me, it’s like, “Okay. I probably would’ve tripped out too if I had seen this movie.” (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: (Laughs) That seems to be [very scary].
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. So it was like – and I think she must’ve seen the movie The Exorcist, and etc. But yeah, so yeah. But I grew up in rural North Carolina, so I grew up with people talking about roots. My family was afraid of it, so they stayed away from it, but that did not keep people from talking about it. So, I knew what he was talking about. Yeah. But to really get exposed to, “Hey, there are voodoo healers and then there are those who are not so kind,” that was what Dr. Jordan was teaching us. That it’s both sides, it’s the black magic, and it’s those that are the healers. And his father was a healer. So yeah. So, I think that was my most influential time.And probably the other influential faculty member was, and I’m blocking on her name, but when I did my psychiatry rotation I was fascinated by psychiatry. But there was a woman, a White woman that I really, and I’ll think of her name eventually, I really appreciated. And I’m trying to think – I don’t think I had any Black faculty at Carolina, but like I said I did get the Meharry experience.
Quiara Shade: So, no like professors, no preceptors? Wow.
Dr. Newkirk: Not that I’m recalling, no. And like I said the preceptors and the folks were, like I said – I think because we were such a tight knit group when if we needed anything we went to the upperclassmen.
Quiara Shade: Right, right. Who would pass down all the knowledge.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But formal? No.Quiara Shade: Interesting.
Dr. Newkirk: I think there was some folks that went before us, and they would come back. I remember a couple people that came back, but they weren’t there when I was there. But yeah.
Quiara Shade: Like a graduating came back to precept and teach?
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. Yeah. So –
Quiara Shade: Were you facing any hardship as a medical student? Hardships meaning did you ever doubt your own abilities as a student, and things of that nature?
Dr. Newkirk: Oh I think self-doubt was always there. That was just kinda growing up as a Black girl in the south. That was just kinda. But we were raised [where] you pretty much had to be twice as good as everybody else, but it was still like, “Am I good enough?” So, I think that just hung around for quite a while. It’s only as I’ve gotten much older that you know, you kinda – as I tell folks as you get older you put your hand on your hip, and put the finger in the face, and you don’t care. It’s like “Well what’re you gonna do? Fire me?” It’s like “Duh!”
Quiara Shade: (Laughs) Yes. So, that kinda goes along with imposter syndrome. Are you familiar with that?
Dr. Newkirk: Yes, oh absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.
Quiara Shade: So, you experienced that while you were in school too. Can you tell me a story about a time you either felt unwelcome or felt like you didn’t belong in your medical education?
Dr. Newkirk: No. Not particularly. I’m sure there were those times, but like I said, we tended to – when times got hard, we leaned on each other. So, I don’t remember any one particular time. I just remember you know the studying got to be so hard at you know some point you really – you were talking about the imposter syndrome, it’s like if you felt down on yourself you couldn’t wallow for so long ‘cause you had to, you know, as we’re used to doing, compartmentalize. It’s like, “Okay. I gotta go over here and do this.”
Quiara Shade: And I’m sure there were other friends, and other people in your circle that felt the same, so it was nice being able to –
Dr. Newkirk: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, that was comforting to know the upperclassmen. And you know, we also saw some of our colleagues and upperclassmen, you know, they got into their –some not so healthy lifestyles and so we understood they were hurting. But you know, they had been those folks that we – you know you wanna take care of. Yeah. So yeah. Life is life, so.
Quiara Shade: Right. Something that’s been getting me through, especially with boards coming up, is “it has been done before me, and it will be done after me.”
Dr. Newkirk: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Quiara Shade: Tell me how you financed your medical education.
Dr. Newkirk: That was through a North Carolina grant. Some family money, but mostly grant, ‘cause I was an in-state student, so the tuition wasn’t that high. And then, for room, and board, and books, it was the – I don’t remember the name of it, but it was the grant where the state would give you money, and then you just had to pay back a year working in the state for each year they paid. Or you paid it back, I ended up paying mine back later.
Quiara Shade: Yeah. So, a grant. Great. Any other prominent things that stick out from your med school experience at the university before we transition to beyond to residency?
Dr. Newkirk: No. Interestingly enough – an interesting story, about two years ago a lady that I’ve, a psychiatrist, she lives in Raleigh, she’s a White lady, she and I had been on this committee probably for the last five or six years, American Psychiatric Association. She walked up to me – sent me an email after meeting – and we always used to just chit chat. She said, “You really don’t remember who I am, do you?” I was like “No.” She said, “I was at Duke with you, and I was at Carolina with you.” I’m going, “Okay.”
Quiara Shade: Classmate?
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. I had no clue. Now, mind you, this was about two years ago. She said, “I always admired how you carried yourself at Duke” ‘cause she was going through her changes. And I’m saying, “Oh my goodness, if you only knew.” And she said, “I used to watch you at Carolina.” Well, she’s gay, so she was going through all of that, and so she used to watch. And it was like we had – it was– we were comfortable with each other on this committee, but after all this time, and I asked her, “Why did you never say that to me earlier?” She still didn’t feel – she didn’t know how I was gonna take it. It’s like “Well what was I gonna say?” (Laughs) We are 60 something year old women now, and she’s just telling [me] – and it was the most fascinating thing.But my point to that story is you never know who’s watching. And what I said to her was, “So and so, think about it. I stood out like a sore thumb ‘cause I’m a tall Black woman.” I wasn’t paying any attention to her, but she was watching me.
Quiara Shade: Right. Right.
Dr. Newkirk: She was just another student to me.
Quiara Shade: Yeah. It’s so funny that, you know, she two years ago, within two years, and you’re like, “No, I don’t remember.” (Laughs)
Dr. Newkirk: No, well it’s no way. Like I said, we graduated Carolina in ’78, and she was with me at Duke in the earlier 70s. So anyway.Quiara Shade: Yeah. Long time ago.
Dr. Newkirk: But as you say, after med school, you never know who’s watching.
Quiara Shade: Right. Right. And what connections. Yeah.Dr. Newkirk: You never know. So anyway.
Quiara Shade: Tell me what residency was like for you. Where did you attend?
Dr. Newkirk: I went to Howard.
Quiara Shade: Howard, yeah. You got back to the HBCU that you wanted.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. I did the bounce. Well it was really kinda fascinating at that point. So, I went to Howard in Washington, and I had decided I was gonna do pediatrics. So, I did my internship. And to do psychiatry you have to do an internship in a primary care specialty anyway, so I did my internship in pediatrics. And then, I decided all the mothers needed help, so it’s like, “Maybe I need to do psychiatry. Ain’t nothing wrong with the kids, the mothers are all crazy.” (Laughs) I mean that was exactly my thinking. I remember –
Quiara Shade: (Laughs) That is so funny.
Dr. Newkirk: Well, you know, you’re on call as a first-year resident, Howard University emergency room, pediatrics, 2:00 a.m. in the morning, it is 30 degrees outside, and she drags – mamas were dragging in kids with runny noses at 3:00 a.m. in the morning. And it’s like “So, you wake me up ‘cause Sally Sue got a runny nose? Does she have a fever?” “I don’t know.” (Both laugh) And it’s like by the time you got to – it’s like “so, I’m staying up all night taking care of runny noses.” Then you go, “Something is wrong with this picture.”
Quiara Shade: So, you said, “Okay. The kids are fine, the mothers, the dads.”
Dr. Newkirk: But the reality is they all knew they didn’t have to wait to see a doctor in the emergency room at 2:00 a.m. in the morning. And if you’re on public assistance or whatever you’re doing, you’re not gonna come to the emergency room at 2:00 in the afternoon when everybody else and their mom is there, and you gonna stay there five or six hours. Of course, I look back on the realities now, but when you’re in the midst of it, it’s like, “Okay.” So, I’m up 36 hours taking care of snotty nosed babies. And then it was about teaching them how to take care of their children themselves. And so yeah. But or the – so anyway– so, I decided to do psychiatry. Plus, I met some fantastic psychiatrists, Black psychiatrists at Howard.But it was kind of a – I had mixed feelings. It’s like, “Okay. I’ve always wanted that Black experience.” There were six of us in the – as pediatric interns, I was the only one not from Howard.
Quiara Shade: Everyone was from Howard. But everyone was Black?
Dr. Newkirk: Everyone was Black, and everyone was from Howard, so I felt excluded. And I actually ended up feeling more excluded in that group than I did being at Chapel Hill.
Quiara Shade: Really?
Dr. Newkirk: And to me, it took me a long time to compute that because they had gone to med school together with each other at Howard. So, they had already had their bonds, I was the new kid coming in. That was not what I expected.
Quiara Shade: Yeah. So, did you eventually find a community and support in that program?
Dr. Newkirk: Not really, which I think why it was so easy for me to leave.Quiara Shade: Yeah. Oh you left?
Dr. Newkirk: Oh yeah, I left and went to Emory in Atlanta, which is where my best friend from med school was at that time doing peds. (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: It was meant to be. (Laughs) It was meant to be.
Dr. Newkirk: And so, she was in Atlanta, and I had visited her in Atlanta. And I had visited Atlanta before. And then, one of my good friends, a Black woman from Duke, had lived in Atlanta. She was in California doing psychiatry. But I did my intern – so, I did my psychiatry residency at Emory. So, that was at Grady. Emory was pretty much like Duke, mostly White – the med school – but the residency programs were very mixed at the time. I ended up being chief resident. I was the first African American Chief Resident of Psychiatry at Emory in Grady. But the chief of service was an African American guy, Dr. Dewitt Alfred, who ended up being a first chair of psychiatry at Morehouse.So, he took me under his wings, he mentored me. Getting to, didn’t [you ask] a question about mentors on there? So, he mentored me. He named me chief resident. I met a Black forensic psychiatrist – he took me under his wings ‘cause we got introduced into – every one of us had to do what we called scut work of seeing the jail inmates from the Fulton County Jail a half day a week when we were second year residents. So, I got interested in forensic psychiatry, ‘cause mind you, I was gonna do child psychiatry, remember?
Quiara Shade: Right. Right.
Dr. Newkirk: I got interested in correctional psychiatry at an African American psychiatrist who did all these evaluations at the jail. So, I ended up doing my elective, my third and fourth year, under him in forensics, and started doing a lot of jail work, and stuff and blah, blah, blah. So, at that point I had two African American male mentors. Dr. Alfred – so, as I finished up [residency] Dr. Alfred said, “Okay. This is what – come on over with me to Morehouse.” And Morehouse was a two-year med school at that point, and so I was one of the first part-time faculty members at Morehouse and it was a two-year school. So, I got to meet Dr. Sullivan, and Dr. Satcher, and all those people when it was all brand new, two years.Quiara Shade: Amazing.
Dr. Newkirk: So, I stayed on as part-time faculty member at Emory on the psychiatry and law service, started my private practice, ended up doing private forensic cases ‘cause my mentor would refer cases to me. I worked part-time in the jail, part-time in the prison, part-time private practice downtown Atlanta with somebody else. Ended up in a high rise doing part-time private, always did part-time private practice in Atlanta, and built the forensic practice, but still under the tutelage of my mentor. Stayed on at Morehouse part-time, also was part-time at Emory for a while, but just stayed on at Morehouse. And so, when I was – as a part-time faculty member I ended up mentoring several African American residents that came through who are now forensic psychiatrists.
Quiara Shade: Yes.
Dr. Newkirk: [One is now] Medical Director for the state of Georgia.
And so, I laugh ‘cause my company is now doing some [work in Georgia]. He’s the client, and I’m putting it together. So, I’m talking to my folks, and they’re talking about doctor so and so. I said, “So, Dr. So and so” and [we] do all our behind the scenes talking. It’s like “No, I got this.” And he goes, “She doesn’t know what she’s talking about.” I said, “Just come and talk to me.” (Laughs)
So, somebody said, “What’re you talking about?” I said, “He used to be one of my residents, so just leave that alone. You don’t understand, he was one of my residents.”
I have had to recuse myself for some stuff at work ‘cause the expert in a lawsuit in a jail [was my student], “Oh, you need to be Dr. So and so!” It’s like, “No, I’m recusing myself ‘cause he was one of my students.”
Quiara Shade: Like, “I already know.” (Laughs)Dr. Newkirk: So I–
Quiara Shade: So, you’ve taken a lot of mentees under your wing?
Dr. Newkirk: Well and it just happens naturally. And it’s what you do, the interim chair, Department of Psychiatry at Morehouse, is a former mentee of mine.Quiara Shade: Yeah.
Dr. Newkirk: Very and –she’s one of those 40 Under 40 who is just like, “Woo!” She’s just, you know, written books –
Quiara Shade: Classic, does all things.
Dr. Newkirk: –the whole nine yards.
Quiara Shade: Yes.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. Just phenomenal woman. And so, you know, you stick out your chest and say, “Yeah, I know her.” But, yeah. So that was so residency – so yeah, Emory was good in a sense of all the people that I met. So the yeah it was a very mixed residency program, but yeah like I said, I had a Black chief of service and he named me chief resident. So, that’s where I got my administrative experience from.Quiara Shade: Great.
Dr. Newkirk: And then Morehouse. Yeah.
Quiara Shade: Yeah. So, you went to Morehouse after the residency at Emory for two years, right? Do I have that order right?
Dr. Newkirk: No, no Morehouse was a two-year medical school.
Quiara Shade: Two-year medical school, okay.
Dr. Newkirk: Which you probably don’t know anything about.Quiara Shade: Yes!
Dr. Newkirk: Morehouse. Yeah, the way med schools are started, Morehouse was one of the newest – there are many more new med schools that are started in the last 10 to 15 years than then. That was 1982 when I finished residency program. Morehouse, had its, maybe their third [class] – they only had year one, year two, they had nothing else.
Quiara Shade: Okay, okay.
Dr. Newkirk: And then, at the third year you had to go somewhere else to do your third and fourth year.
Quiara Shade: Ok.
Dr. Newkirk: So, when I went to Morehouse it was a two-year med school, but that was after I finished my residency program. I started teaching didactics at Morehouse, and so I’ve watched Morehouse grow from being–
Quiara Shade: A two-year med school to a four-year –
Dr. Newkirk: A two-year med school.
And I’m still adjunct faculty at Morehouse. From being a two-year med school, to residencies, and many different areas. And the young lady I was talking about just got their first fellowship program approved by the ACGME for Child Psychology, so the first fellowship at Morehouse. And so yeah. So a lot of the psychiatry faculty at Morehouse either we trained together, or they were on faculty at Emory for a while and then switched over to Morehouse. Actually, one of the guys who ended up being chair of family practice, or was in charge of family practice residency training, he and I were in med school together at Chapel Hill, and he ended up at Morehouse. And so, we got stories after stories.
Quiara Shade: Yeah. Stories for days, that’s beautiful. I love all the connections, and all the growth coming from the connections. Yeah. And you’re speaking on this a little bit already, but how does being a Black physician matter in your workplace, family, and community? So, you talked a little bit about –Dr. Newkirk: Ooo! (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: – being a mentor.
Dr. Newkirk: Well, it’s kinda interesting, I was in – when I was in Atlanta I stayed in Atlanta. I moved in ’79, did my residency training, stayed there in private practice, and I left in ’96. So, let me just talk about Atlanta for a while, then I’ll talk about the rest ‘cause it was fascinating. Atlanta is a very interesting place ‘cause it’s a haven for Black professionals.Quiara Shade: Yes.
Dr. Newkirk: It was very, very easy to network in Atlanta, so I did a lot of part-time jobs, and like I said, I had a private practice. But I was always in practice with somebody else, either a psychologist, and we had several people working in the office, or I started out with another psychiatrist, but then I did my own thing.
It’s a little – it’s a job here, a job there. I was the psychiatrist for Spelman [College] for a while, ‘cause you know, so when the ladies would get into their real bad problems, so you know, they would call me up, and I’d see them in my private practice, and their parent’s insurance would pay. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, I worked in jails, and prisons part-time. I ended up being the lead psychiatrist at Fulton County Jail, which is the big jail downtown Atlanta. I worked at a state prison system part-time, you know, two or three days a week, guaranteed money while you do your private practice in the afternoons and on weekends. And I ended up, my mentor, gave me – some – a case, and he still mentored me, he did what’s called prison litigations.
So, they needed experts to work with attorneys with inmates who were suing over inadequate mental health services, so he taught me how to do that. When he couldn’t do the cases, he would give the extra ones to me, so that’s how I got started doing that. I did that for 20 years.
Quiara Shade: Oh wow.
Dr. Newkirk: Of course, when I got tired, I gave them to some of my mentees. (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: Right, right. (Laughs)
Dr. Newkirk: So, it’s, that’s how it goes. So, I did that as a part of my private practice, so I got to see a lot of jails and prisons all over the country, be an expert. I presented on working with women in prisons in Australia at an international corrections healthcare meeting.
So, I started going to a lot of professional meetings when I was in private practice, be that corrections or psychiatry, and that’s where you really meet people, and network. And that’s where I found the Black Psychiatrists of America. And so, that was, again, that cadre of wherever we work. Okay, sometimes we just needed to be with the Black folks. So, in Atlanta wherever I worked there tended to be lots of Black folks, not all Black folks, but it was just, it was just very comfortable. I don’t care what setting I was in. Just –
Quiara Shade: With your colleagues, patients? Yeah.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. And you know, people doing well, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, so that was Atlanta. I mean, I ended up being the Mental Health Director for Georgia Department of Corrections, so I had – and then I worked in what we call operations. I was a deputy commissioner for three years ‘cause I had another mentor, this was a White guy this time. He was the commissioner who named me, and he protected, and he actually had my back, and protected me. It was only after I left that I find out all the stuff he kept, all the good ol’ boys away from me. So, I was one of those first women deputy commissioners in corrections, ‘cause corrections is good ol’ boy, paramilitary environment.And whoever heard of a doctor being a deputy commissioner in corrections? That’s not what you do. He had his Ph.D., educated, and he’s still with us – he’s still alive, he’s still one of my mentors now.
Quiara Shade: Great. how inspiring.
Dr. Newkirk: So, there again. Yeah. But it’s the mentorship, and you don’t realize how important that is until you hear people’s stories about people who bring you along, and then protect you. Just, “Okay, give me a seat at the table.” But as a friend of mine said, “But you gotta give me the fork too, you can’t just sit me at the table.”
Quiara Shade: And even when you’re not at the table, like who’s gonna bring your name up at the table –Dr. Newkirk: Right.
Quiara Shade: – so you can get a seat at the table?
Dr. Newkirk: Right. yeah. So, and I think I have very seldom had to go look for a job because it usually came my way. But Dr. Alfred, my mentor from Emory and Morehouse told me, he said, “Never do anything full-time.” And I always remember that. And that’s not my personality, I get bored pretty quickly, but he told me never do anything full-time. So, that was way back in the 1980 when he told me that, so I still live by that, never do anything full-time. Only reason I’m still with this company for so long ‘cause it keeps changing, it changes every day, so it’s just never a dull moment, never the same thing.
Quiara Shade: What company are you with now? Cause you said you were recently –
Dr. Newkirk: I’ll tell you about that.Quiara Shade: Okay.
Dr. Newkirk: I’ve been with this company for 17 years, that’s another whole chapter in my life. (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: (Laughs) Okay.
Dr. Newkirk: So, before we get to that part, so I got married in ’96, married a guy that lived in Jersey. So, I left Atlanta and moved to New Jersey.
Quiara Shade: Okay.
Dr. Newkirk: And so, I was still doing some consulting work, was not doing –that’s when I closed my private practice. That was the first time I closed private practice. So, it’s like, “Okay. What am I gonna do?” I did not wanna do private practice anymore ‘cause now the world of managed care, ‘cause I grew up before managed care. Through managed care, it’s like all my partners gone.
I went work full-time for corrections, and just did a little bit of private practice. So, when I left Atlanta, I was full-time. No. That job had gone away, I take that back. That’s a whole political thing. But, anyway, I moved, and I ended up working part-time at a women’s prison in Jersey, and then I worked at a – I was the mental health director in Philadelphia with a company that I had worked for – private company that does health and mental health services in jails and prisons. But I had worked for them in Atlanta part-time, went to work for them full-time in Jersey, I mean in Philly as the mental health director for the Philadelphia jail, which was about a 6,000 bed jail at that time.
And so, three years later the same company needed a mental health director at Rikers Island in New York, and I ended up taking that job. So, then I – instead of having a nice 40-minute commute against traffic, as I was living in Central Jersey at that time near Princeton, I then had a two-and-a-half-hour drive north to New York.
Quiara Shade: With traffic.
Dr. Newkirk: Yes, with traffic. So, I ended up working at Rikers for three years, but I was a mental health director at Rikers Island. So I had given up –Quiara Shade: Tell me about that.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. Huh?
Quiara Shade: I said, tell me about that.
Dr. Newkirk: I don’t know what there is to say about that. (Both laugh) Except Rikers is 10 jails, at the time 16,000 offenders. Every jail had its own administration, so I had 10 mental health groups, 10 mental health units, 10 mental health teams, ‘cause every jail had its own team. So, I was a mental – my job was really to navigate. I was – I navigated the politics between the VP of the private company, the warden over Rikers Island, and all the city people which were our clients. I had a chief psychiatrist who took care of the internal stuff. I took care of all the external crap to keep that away from my staff so they could do their work. And that was pretty much how Philadelphia worked, but when I was in Georgia Department of Corrections, that was my job, to keep the snakes and [piranhas] away from my staff.So, I got to learn the politics of corrections, just there’s the politics of medicine, and there’s politics of any industry in which you work. As a healthcare company within the corrections, those of us that work in those management positions have to, as physician executives, you have to learn the politics of medicine and you have to understand the politics of corrections. So, that was Rikers.
And I got a call, a cold-call from somebody here in Florida, and I didn’t – the name was funny – I had never heard of Boca Raton. And I was just getting tired of the commute at Rikers, and it was a cold-call, and long story short, I took the job.
The guy who hired me is the CEO of the company that I work for now, but there were only five of them in the office when he hired me. I made six. And we were very small, but it was connected to a larger company, and that was 17 and a half years ago. So, that’s how I got to Florida. And that company has, we split off, got bought by somebody else, bought by somebody else again, and I am now the chief psychiatric officer for Wellpath. And we cover about 300,000 lives, in 34 states, and we have a jails division, we have the state prison system division. We have, it’s called Recovery Solutions, but it’s pretty much psychiatric hospitals – we manage the hospitals from top to bottom, everything.
They give us – the state gives us a lump sum of money, and we manage the hospitals. We have sexually violent predators who are doing jail-based competency restoration program, we’re buying psychiatric rehab facilities, we have some private for-profit psychiatric hospitals. And so, I manage all the psychiatry for all of those – for actually for the whole company. So I have – someone oversees corrections for me, but we don’t have enough middle managers, so I end up doing some direct oversight. And he [the CEO] does a lot of direct oversight, I end up doing some. But so, I think you might know when in the [prior] email I said, “Okay. This is a week for me being a road warrior.” ‘Cause prior to COVID, I was actually on I was on a plane more than I was at home.
Quiara Shade: Really?
Dr. Newkirk: Oh, yeah. The year before COVID, I was – we were managing the Anchorage Psychiatric Institute, and so I was traveling to and from Anchorage probably every third week.Quiara Shade: Wow.
Dr. Newkirk: Staying the week. And to tell you how much of a road warrior I am, see the way I talk. And what I get into is, “Okay. How many Delta miles do I have? Okay. Can I get bumped up to that seat? And how many hotel miles?”
Quiara Shade: Yes.
Dr. Newkirk: And yeah, “I am lifetime titanium in the league in Marriott,” so those are our conversations. (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: Yes. (Laughs)
Dr. Newkirk: So, when I tell you I am a road warrior, I am a road warrior. Those are the conversations, and it’s like, “No, your suitcase is too big.” You gotta have the suitcase ‘cause I’m not standing in that baggage claim. “Oh you’re packing that suitcase for seven days?” It’s like, “Yeah. What you think?”
Quiara Shade: Yes, absolutely.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah, so no. And I guess I’ve been doing that. So, with that company, it has grown, and with this division, Recovery Solutions. I do the whole company, but I grew up in Recovery Solutions. That’s where I started, so they are part of my group, so I’ve been involved in every one of their openings except one. So, all of those things I just named I’ve been involved of the start-ups of all of those, ‘cause a lot of the things that I mentioned, we actually start them from scratch.
Quiara Shade: Cause you –Dr. Newkirk: So, it’s been a very fascinating.
Quiara Shade: –You’ve been a part of them as well, so you’ve expanded over the years.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. And like I said, the guy who’s a CEO of the entire company, he hired me, and there were only, he only had, he was one of five people, and I made six. He was the one that did the cold-call, and it was only three or four years later did I find out how he got my name. He got my name from somebody I’d never met, but who knew who I was. I knew who he was, he knew who I was, but we had never met, and he gave my guy my name and number.
Quiara Shade: Amazing.
Dr. Newkirk: Cold-call, so no, I did not apply for the job. (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: Amazing. So, out of all the cities, all the jobs that you’ve had, which one would you say has been your most formative, and most, you know like, “I’m happy with this. I’m proud of this”?
Dr. Newkirk: Probably the one I have now. It is very frustrating. It is now, I just celebrated 40 years of practice July 1.
Quiara Shade: Congratulations.
Dr. Newkirk: So, I tell folks when I say I’m a tired old lady now, I’m a tired old lady. (Laughs) And I can finally –
Quiara Shade: Busy doing all the great work.
Dr. Newkirk: But the trying times of things I didn’t like only prepared me to do what I’m doing now. And I realize, I mean, I probably realized that about 10 or 15 years ago because somebody said to me, “How do you know?” I said and I’ll tell you now, my answers I’m supposed to know, at this – if you’ve been doing something as long as I have, then you’re supposed to know. So, it’s like, “Why are you asking me that question?” “I’m supposed to know.” If I don’t know now, then it’s like I shouldn’t have been doing this. Yeah, I’m supposed to know. But probably because this – and my husband will tell you, and actually my mentor in the Georgia Department of Corrections, he and I used to laugh because every three years we changed jobs.So, if you looked at my resume its three years, three years, it’s like changing jobs. And when I went to work for Rikers Island it was three years, and then I got this job in Florida, and my husband did not follow me immediately. And I said, “Well, how come you didn’t move?” he said, “’Cause you’re always changing in three years, and I figured you were gonna come back.” (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: That is so funny. (Laughs)
Dr. Newkirk: I never thought about that. And it was so, he finally moved down here about seven or eight years ago, he’s like, “Well, I guess you’re not coming back to Jersey.” (Laughs) ‘Cause I would go home on weekends, so it was and I hadn’t realized but every three years, but I’ve been with this company for 17 and a half years.
Quiara Shade: That’s a long stretch with –
Dr. Newkirk: Oh yeah. I’m serious about the three years.Quiara Shade: Yeah! (Laughs)
Dr. Newkirk: Except the private practice, I stayed in the private practice, but still stuff I did within the private practice was three years, three years, three years.
Quiara Shade: Right. Different roles in the private practice.
Dr. Newkirk: Mhm. But those different roles prepared me for much bigger roles.
Quiara Shade: Right, right, everything –
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. So, I think so the skills that I learned that prepared me for this job were really more of the executive skills, the negotiations, the compromising, managing people, being able to talk to the secretary, or the president of whatever, whatever, whatever. And be with the clients, you know, the walk-in, you know, and not be in intimidated, “Been there and done that.” You know, kinda like, “Oh you have?” “Yeah. Uh-huh.” (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: Yes, I have. (Laughs)
Dr. Newkirk: Yes, been there done that. And so, yeah. So, probably this job, but this job has changed so that’s why I haven’t gotten bored.
Quiara Shade: Right. From what you mentioned, like it’s ever expanding, it’s something new for you.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. It’s still growing and it’s, I guess, about seven or eight years ago the company that I was hired into was a publicly traded company on Wall Street. And our small division had to break off because they were becoming a real estate investment trust instead of being publicly traded, and you could not have any healthcare holdings. So, within 12 months I learned more about high finance than I had in my entire life. And since then, that small company I told you about has now been privately held by a private equity.
Quiara Shade: Which is better?
Dr. Newkirk: Huh?
Quiara Shade: Which is better?
Dr. Newkirk: Which? Are you asking me?
Quiara Shade: No, yeah. That was a question at the end of that. It’s better to be in that position than the latter? No?
Dr. Newkirk: Three years from now when you finish up, I want you to tell me how much finance they teach you in med school and how much business they teach you in med school.
Quiara Shade: I will let you know; I will follow up.
Dr. Newkirk: I ended up getting my MBA when I was in Philadelphia, I got it online, and I’ll tell you why. Because it was sticking spreadsheets under my nose, and talking high finance. I had no clue what they were talking about. “Doc, you gotta control this, and you gotta control that.” It’s like what the heck is that?Quiara Shade: Yeah, I always tell my friends –
Dr. Newkirk: So I got my MBA.
Quiara Shade: – I think it should be something in high school so it’s accessible to everyone what they teach you about finance, mortgage, credit, like all that.
Dr. Newkirk: So, when you ask, when someone asks me, “Well, I wanna go get my master’s” get your M.D., and then folks wanna get their Master of Public Health. I said, “Let me give you a piece of advice, get your MBA first, then you can go get your master’s in public health.” I said, “’Cause whatever you do, if you go into private practice, you’re gonna be dealing with somebody who wants to buy that practice, or you gotta figure out how you gonna finance that practice. And you gotta understand.” I tell people right now even from my private practice, I still got money floating in the universe ‘cause I didn’t understand just all of that stuff.And so, you got managed care, you can – I mean, I’ve been a private contractor for I don’t know how much, but it’s just understanding what that means. So, to ask me the question – being a part of a company that’s private equity or publicly traded, when it was publicly traded at the management level, they gave us stock options. So, you still needed to understand how stock options worked, ‘cause they mature after a certain period of time, then you could cash in. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Private equity, I was, when, and I was lucky again, the guy who hired me, mentored me, and protected me. When the small group broke off from the big group, I was the only African American who was invited to buy shares into the private equity.
Quiara Shade: Yes.
Dr. Newkirk: And I think I’m still about the only one now. It’s probably at 1.5 billion dollars’ worth.
Quiara Shade: Wow.
Dr. Newkirk: I mean, the company worth.
Quiara Shade: Yeah. You have a share of it.
Dr. Newkirk: But we don’t see anything until they rollover. And so, when I say rollover, private equity buys a company, and they hold it, they want the company make money, and then the principals will sell. And they got all – they have maybe hundreds of companies in their portfolio, and then they sell, and that’s how they make their profit. So, they’re selling to another private equity group.
Quiara Shade: Right. And that’s what the rollover is when they do that.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. And those of us who have any interest and they don’t call them shares, I don’t even know what they call them, but they’re not shares. Shares is in publicly traded companies. But you don’t see anything until – and then you can leave your money, or you can take it. And you wanna see it. But even – and I didn’t feel so bad when we were being – when we were invited – they had these high flouting finance people come in and explain this to us who were going to be invited in. I didn’t feel bad at all ‘cause it was – I looked around the room, it was like the lawyers, all the high flouting guys – they didn’t know any more than I knew. (Laughs)Quiara Shade: Yeah (Laughs)
Dr. Newkirk: Because they had always worked at the publicly traded companies, so now we were talking private equities.
Quiara Shade: Private is a lot different. Yeah.
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. It was a very, it was fascinating. So that’s when – and I still have the same accountant that got me out of a pile of doodoo in Atlanta. She’s still in Atlanta, and I still have her. And we’ve been together, what, 30 some odd years? But everything we do now is remote, so I’ve watched even that part. It used to be take all the receipts to the accountant –Quiara Shade: Yeah –
Dr. Newkirk: – now everything is remote, via apps. “Hey, you gotta upload all of this and blah, blah, blah.” I just got a note from her, so she has been a friend for a long time, so it’s fascinating to me. I still have my Atlanta roots, so you ask me what I’ve done, but I still go to Atlanta to get my hair done, that tells you just how tight Atlanta is. (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: Which is phenomenal by the way.
Dr. Newkirk: I will tell, I will tell my hair – “No. I still go to Atlanta to get my hair done.”
Quiara Shade: Your hair looks amazing.
Dr. Newkirk: So, I will tell her that. Yeah. And my accountant is still in Atlanta, but you know you find those folks, and you just hang onto them.
Quiara Shade: Right. Stay with them.
Dr. Newkirk: So, I think of all the places I’ve lived, Atlanta has been the most supportive, and still just those long-term connections.
Quiara Shade: Yeah that seems to be where you got a lot of your connections.
Dr. Newkirk: Oh yeah. And that’s where I grew. Yeah just, but that’s so. And here I am. So, COVID, everything went virtual pretty much, and even for us. And so, we’re now somewhat back on the road. And so, it’s…
Quiara Shade: Back to somewhat of a normal. Well, I have –
Dr. Newkirk: Well, I don’t know about normal. It’s the new normal.
Quiara Shade: Yeah, the new normal.
Dr. Newkirk: The new normal, yeah. So, anyway, so any other particular questions? ‘cause –
Quiara Shade: Yeah. Couple more questions to wrap up.Dr. Newkirk: Sure.
Quiara Shade: Or I’ll ask you one question ‘cause we kinda talked about what you were proud of throughout your career. But what advice would you give to current Black medical students?
Dr. Newkirk: I think I’ve kinda talked about it. You need to find a mentor, hang onto each other, and you need to learn something about finances. (Laughs)
Quiara Shade: Yes, get your MBA.
Dr. Newkirk: Well, you don’t have to get your MBA necessarily, but you need to learn something about finances. ‘Cause no matter what you do, and more, and more residents who are coming out are going, are finding, are becoming employed versus doing something on their own. I think the other thing I would tell – you want advice for students, right?
Quiara Shade: Yeah, for students.
Dr. Newkirk: Is to really talk to physicians who are doing different things. I started out in private practice and figured that’s what I was gonna do, but I guess I’ve always had a knack of wanting to do something different, not quite knowing what that different was. And I tell folks that you have to be left brain thinker and like working outside of a box. If you like things settled, and don’t like change, then you need to probably, you know, be employed, and settle down, and just work. But if you like the excitement, there’s a lot of things that physicians are doing that will probably even be different when you finish your residency training.I think technology has advanced tremendously far since that time I was, you know 40 years ago, so I think even medical technology, looking into IT, just, you know, the electronic health records, robotics, you know, even as physicians.
And I think medical students need to really understand their special places. What bothers me more than anything else, even though I respect nurse practitioners, a lot of people are beginning to equate nurse practitioners as physicians, especially as they get their PhDs. And their PhDs are in nursing, not medicine, but they walk on the units in their white coats, and they call them doctors, ‘cause they are a doctor.
And just I think as you proceed, you’re probably gonna be doing some rotations side by side with nurse practitioners and PAs, and you need to think about, “How am I gonna distinguish myself as a physician?” ‘Cause I think that’s gonna be one of your biggest challenges. Is the – I mean we used to always call them… Well, some places call them advanced practice practitioners. Like, “Well, what’s that?” We call them – they were ancillary; they were more like helpers. And now, a lot of states, they can practice on their own. They can practice autonomously without any physician oversight. So, I would just say just be very observant and be mindful about that. Otherwise, I think –
– and yes, healthcare is gonna change, but I just don’t see if you compare your training to what the training is for nurse practitioners, and I think that’s where you have to look. You have to look objectively. I mean, you start your clinical training in your third and fourth year, and so by the time you will finish up you will have your four years of residency. You’re gonna have at least six years of clinical experience hands on if you do psychiatry. Some you may have five. They have one.
Quiara Shade: Yeah. It’s a huge difference, right?
Dr. Newkirk: Yeah. But when you look at how they’re being promoted and touted, that’s not talked about. So, I can’t think of anything else. Have fun.
Quiara Shade: Yes, of course. What you gave was amazing. Thank you again for taking the time to sit down.
Dr. Newkirk: Thank you, I appreciate that.
Quiara Shade: I’m gonna go ahead and stop the recording.
Dr. Newkirk: Okay.
Quiara Shade: Stop recording.
[End of Audio]Duration: 86 minutes
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About
Dr. Cassandra Newkirk was born and raised between Burgaw and Wilmington, NC. Growing up the child of a teacher and a principal, she cultivated a love of reading, music, and community involvement. She was transferred in high school to the newly integrated New Hanover High, where she became the first Black senior class president, played oboe in the marching band, and had her sights set on receiving a degree in biomedical engineering after graduation. With her great ambition came great passion, as she actively participated in class boycotts and integration of the Azalea Festival in Wilmington during the Civil Rights Movement. After graduating high school, she attended Duke University and surrounded herself with a very close-knit group of Black students interested in medicine and Black studies. Despite having their support, she felt the clash of her upbringing versus the universities’ majority population of White, affluent students. As a result, she accelerated her degree path to graduate Duke in 1973 with a Bachelor of Science in Black Studies and applied to medical school for the first time. After an acceptance to Meharry Medical College was received too late, she spent a semester at A&T taking premed courses and immersing herself in a college with an enriching Black community while reapplying. Having a strong Black community fortunately continued into her years at . She recounts positive memories of her fellow Black medical students, including fish fries on Johnson Street, culturally competent SNMA (Student National Medical Association) meetings, and upperclassmen providing encouragement and support for her class. After graduating in 1978, she started a pediatric internship at Howard University. Her community at Howard and pediatric experiences were very informative and served as a catalyst for her switch into a psychiatric residency at Emory. She thrived in Atlanta, becoming the first African American Chief Resident of Psychiatry at Emory and finding a mentor, Dr. Dewitt Alfred, who introduced her to correctional psychiatry and forensic psychiatry. After residency, she became one of the first-part time faculty members at Morehouse Medical College and delved into working in the private sector as well as in forensic and correctional psychiatry at multiple locations. Her vivacious spirit and commitment to challenging herself throughout the years led her to many jobs throughout the East Coast, including Mental Health Director for Georgia Department of Corrections, Mental Health Director for Philadelphia Prison Health Services, and even Mental Health Director at Rikers Island in New York. Eventually, a cold call from Boca Raton, Florida led her to a 17-year career at Wellpath, where she is now the Chief Psychiatric Officer. She is responsible for oversight of all medical and behavioral services for Correct Care Recovery Solutions, which are psychiatric hospitals that serve the jail and state prison systems throughout 34 states.
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