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  Interviewer: Okay. So, I鈥檓 recording now on the Zoom also. Would you mind please repeating your place and date of birth?

  Dr. Elliott: Yes, my date of birth is 12/26/39. Sorry, it was on Benbow Road in Greensboro, North Carolina. I only lived there for a few days.

  Interviewer: Oh, in Greensboro?
  Dr. Elliott: Yes.
  Interviewer: And then?

  Dr. Elliott: Then, my mother and father were teachers in Columbus County.
  So, I grew up in Columbus County, North Carolina, out in between four or five small towns.

  Interviewer: What was your family like? Was it just you as a kid?

  Dr. Elliott: No, I had a sister five years younger. She deceased at age 44 with breast cancer.

  Interviewer: Oh, I鈥檓 sorry to hear that. Very young. What was it like growing up with them?

  Dr. Elliott: It was fantastic. I was really blessed to grow up in the county that I grew up in because it was a county that had a large number of independent farmers. They were farmers who had guns. They were not afraid of the Klan. So, we didn鈥檛 have that issue to deal with which adjoining counties did. I felt very privileged because we lived in a 鈥� it was an unpainted building. It was an old schoolhouse. A very substantial building. The principal lived next door and one of the teachers further over. No deprivation. My parents really did all the heavy lifting. My mother worked as a maid in Greensboro. Worked her way through Bennet College.
  Finished in 鈥�35.

  My daddy was from a tenant farm. He was fortunate. A minister invited him to live with them in Greensboro. So, he came and worked over six years to finish [North Carolina] A&T in 1936. That鈥檚 where there鈥檚 a linkage between the first med students with Thurgood Marshall, and what Thurgood Marshall did for my family. My mother started at $35.00 a month, and my daddy started at $50.00 a month. Thurgood Marshall about the same time started

  attacking the southern states that where Black teachers earned about half of White teachers. So, shortly after my parents started working, their salaries doubled or more than doubled.

  Interviewer: Nice. Did you have a lot of relatives growing up near Columbus County as well?

  Dr. Elliott: Not in Columbus County. But in 鈥� I have hundreds of relatives in Greensboro where my mother is from. I have some other relatives scattered around the state in the past. Currently, my son鈥檚 family is in Cary, North Carolina, outside of Raleigh

  Interviewer: In Cary?

  Dr. Elliott: Yes. My other son lives in Atlanta where I am. He鈥檚 not married, and my daughter lives here. She has a family here.

  Interviewer: When you were young and still living in North Carolina, who do you consider a most influential presence in your youth? How?
  Besides your parents, obviously.

  Dr. Elliott: Well, I had great teachers. It was a segregated school but had some excellent teachers. In fact, impressive is the principal who taught math. He taught us all individually. Whereas many of the class were taught collectively where you could spend ten days or two weeks to bring the slower students along. But the principal didn鈥檛 do that. It manifested itself in that I had an A in Algebra the first year at Carolina. Well, I had two Bs and two Cs. That was reflective of the high school that I attended. The atmosphere in the county was very different from a lot of places in the South in that Blacks always voted or huge number of teachers.

  Unlike growing up in many inner cities, I had zero negative associations with police. In talking with older people and younger people recently, they could not recall the kind of incidents that minorities in some of the bigger cities have to deal with.

  Interviewer: Yeah. When you were in high school, what options did you consider for life after high school?

  Dr. Elliott: That鈥檚 interesting. Because I didn鈥檛 know what I wanted to do. I loved children. My parents always talked about the long hours and the low pay. So, I decided I didn鈥檛 want to be a teacher. So, my
  uncle, who was in New Jersey, had a daughter. People always asked do you want to be a doctor or lawyer back in that day. Teacher. There weren鈥檛 that many choices for minorities. I wasn鈥檛 interested in any of them. But his daughter was going to a pediatrician, and I learned that you could be a doctor who鈥檇 only see children. So, that鈥檚 what I decided to do.

  To show you how bright or unbright I was, I went to the library and got a book about med school. I got an application from 黑料网. Filled out the application and sent it to the Med School. So, God blessed me that somehow my application ended up at the university. Because at that time when I was admitted, all three of us, David Dansby, a classmate, and the other student from Carolina were interviewed byMr. Armstrong. He spent a lot of time quizzing me about where my application came from. I didn鈥檛 remember during the interview. But he wanted to know if it was NAACP.

  He just couldn鈥檛 figure out where my application came from. But fortunately, I was admitted.

  Interviewer: Did you go to 黑料网 forundergraduate?
  Dr. Elliott: Yes.
  Interviewer: Oh. Tell me a little bit about that just backtracking for a moment as a young high school graduate moving into 黑料网. Why go there?
  Why go to 黑料网 in the first place?

  Dr. Elliott: I think I was attracted by the medical school. As a matter of fact, that鈥檚 where I sent my application. You know, I use the expression FOC, fresh out of the country. So, I don鈥檛 know if I thought I was going straight to med school or what. But anyway, my experience 黑料网 undergrad experience was probably one of the most enjoyable of any student that鈥檚 ever been to 黑料网. When I got there, I applied to freshman camp. Got to the Y. I didn鈥檛 know it at the time, but [黑料网 YMCA Director] Anne Queen, who was an angel, she went out to the farm to make sure that it was okay for a Black student to come out to freshman camp. That was cleared.
  What she also did 鈥� I don鈥檛 want to forget.

  My whole experience at 黑料网, she entertained all celebrities that came to the university at her cottage. I was invited to all those and met people like the editor of the New York Times, ABC news

  commentators. People from all over the world. From freshman camp and being around the Y, I met all the leaders and people on campus. In fact, one of the people I met was 鈥� Allard Lowenstein who is deceased Representative of the state of New York. In my first year there, he invited me to [黑料网] President [William] Friday鈥檚 house to meet Eleanor Roosevelt. At the time, I was not aware of how involved she was with Black and minority policies.

  But I later learned, ten years later, that she as First Lady flew with Alfred Anderson, I think his name was, with the Tuskegee Airmen. That鈥檚 how Tuskegee Airmen were allowed to start flying in Europe. But the experience at the Y was unbelievable. I would go to the Cosmopolitan and meet foreign students not knowing anything about their country. Go back and read about it. Come back and pretend to be intelligent the next time. So, also, I met Larkin Kirkman who was head of the committee to select scholars to spend a year in Germany. He had to ask me twice did I apply.
  So, I got to spend a fantastic year in Germany.

  Four months in language school in southern Germany. I lived with a German family. The other Gottingen scholar was Denton Lotz who organized a trip through the Russian agency Intourist for 17 students to go to Russia for two weeks. Following that, I joined a group of German students to go down through Yugoslavia and Greece and spent two weeks in Egypt. Had trips to East Germany and met with East Germany students. That alone was just a fantastic experience.

  Interviewer: That is fantastic. Are you talking about your years as an undergraduate student at 黑料网?

  Dr. Elliott: Yes. That was my junior year.

  Interviewer: Is that when you got to spend a year in Germany? Dr. Elliott: Yes, unbelievable vacation.
  Interviewer: That is really 鈥� and what year is this more or less? Dr. Elliott: That would have been 鈥�59 or 鈥�60.
  Interviewer: Wow. So, right smack in the middle of the Cold War.

  Dr. Elliott: In the smack middle of the?

  Interviewer: The Cold War.

  Dr. Elliott: Oh, yes. Okay.

  Interviewer: Tell me again. I mean, I鈥檓 sure I believe it. It just sounds incredible that you had a connection with this Russian host that allowed you to go and visit East Germany as well and Yugoslavia.

  Dr. Elliott: East Germany was not part of that trip. This was . Denton Lotz is now deceased. He went on to become head of a large Baptist Convention. I don鈥檛 know if it was American Baptist Convention or what. His brother is married to Billy Graham鈥檚 daughter. His brother was on the 鈥�57 team when I entered the championship team against Will Chamberlain. But he arranged the trip. I don鈥檛 know how he connected with the Russian agency Intourist But that was interesting.

  Interviewer: When you were at 黑料网, were there 鈥� were there any enrichment programs for prospective Black medical students? Like we have the MED program now, for example.

  Dr. Elliott: No, not at all. I did want to mention 鈥揑 did want to mention a person that you鈥檙e familiar with, Dr. Lawrence Zollicoffer 鈥� the three students that were admitted in 1955, I had assumed it was an NAACP lawsuit, but it was not. That was Leroy and Ralph Frasier and Lewis Brandon. But it was the Frasier鈥檚 daddy, Leroy Frasier, Sr. I just learned that reading a few years ago that initiated that lawsuit. But anyway, they came and lived in Steele dorm. It鈥檚 the Administration Building now. From the parking lot side, there are three entrances. So, there were four rooms on each level. They were assigned to the top floor and had a room each.

  Just a fabulous location in the middle of campus. White students came and wanted to room with them, but administration wouldn鈥檛 allow it. But the White boys were three to a room. But anyway, Lawrence Zollicoffer apparently may have lived on campus for a year before he went to Med School. They talk about how bright Zolli was because he loved to play cards. Zollicoffer never ever turned down an opportunity to play cards. So, they assumed he had a photographic memory. There was one other student I need to mention just because I鈥檓 going to mention him when I get to Med

  School and that鈥檚 鈥� my goodness. Glad I wrote it down. Chambers.

  Oh, and Zollicoffer personality was just exuberant. He was just pleasant, smiling, laughing. A personality that you could associate with being very, very bright. Now, Julius Chambers was very different. He was in Law School, and I learned about him a lot through my classmate David Dansby, who went to Law School.
  Every time you would meet Julius Chambers, he was laughing and talking and telling jokes. Just talking all kinds of ridiculous stuff. I mean, just funny. He was really entertaining, but you would never guess how brilliant he was. He came from a small room schoolhouse in eastern North Carolina. He was a top student in the Law School.

  He was editor of the Law Review. Dansby said that at the end of the year when they had the special awards, he received all the books for the top student and class. Dr.Pollock , who was a constitutional lawyer said that Julius was head and shoulders above the rest of the class. I just mentioned Julius because he went on to be head of NAACP Legal. Well, first of all, he formed an integrated law firm, Ferguson Stein, in Charlotte. By the way,] Stein鈥檚 son is now the current Attorney General of North Carolina, Joshua. But Julius came back to be Provost at North Carolina University in Durham.

  He died a few years ago. But I mention him because when I get to Med School, I鈥檒l mention him again.

  Interviewer: I gather that already when you were in college you were eyeing the possibility of going here to the 黑料网. Do you remember people who most encouraged you or discouraged you from applying?

  Dr. Elliott: There was none of that. But I do need to put one thing on the record because I think it鈥檚 interesting. It was 鈥� the word was you needed good grades in Organic Chemistry,, and Zoology to get into Medical School. So, I earned a B inOrganic Chemistry. But the Zoology was interesting because one of my White classmates at the beginning of the year before the first exam asked if I wanted to study with him. I said, yeah. So, we met in an empty classroom. He brought this huge file of tests. He belonged to a fraternity.

  This was 1960. So, before each exam, he had every exam that the

  Zoology professor had given for the last 20 years going back to 1940. So, before each exam, we looked over all exams. When he went in for the exam, John walked out after about five minutes. Being a Black boy, I wasn鈥檛 about to do that. So, I stayed until the end of class looking over my paper,. But it was just interesting to know that White fraternities had those kinds notes and files. That for certain courses, obviously, you didn鈥檛 have to go to class. You could be guaranteed an A. So, I just wanted to put that in the record.

  I don鈥檛 know if minority fraternities have that system or not.

  Interviewer: That鈥檚 a good question. This is the first that I鈥檝e heard of it that there鈥檚 an informal record of the exams circulating.

  Dr. Elliott: You know, one thing I didn鈥檛 get to mention about undergraduate school is the second year I took a course, the American Negro.
  David Dansby, my classmate, took it also and got an A; I got a B. Of course, he teased me a bit about being a B class Negro. But 鈥� semester break, I went to New York. Friends took me down to Harlem. He had a liquor store. Dropped me off. I walked up to the bookstore, and I got Black Muslims in the USA by Eric Lincoln.
  That鈥檚 what my term paper was going to be on. So, before we left, he asked if I would like to meet Malcolm X. So, he dropped me off at Temple #7, and I got to talk with Malcolm X for close to an hour.

  Interviewer: Wow.

  Dr. Elliott: He gave me a copy of the Harvard Crimson, I think it was, where he spoke the month before. Showed a picture of him pointing his finger as he, you know, when he was up on the pedestal. He was one of the most pleasant people you could even meet. You know, he wanted to know about me. We talked about the movement. That was an exciting experience. Never got to talk with him again, just see him two other times. Once, he came down to 黑料网 about 1973, and at the Black Lodge Hall in Durham. They wouldn鈥檛 let him speak at North Carolina Central University, a Black school.

  Interviewer: Really?

  Dr. Elliott: Both of those times, I just got to shake hands because it was a crowd of people. An interesting thing that happened with Stokely

  Carmichael when he came 鈥� to 鈥� all the Black folks had to go to Duke to see him speak because he couldn鈥檛 speak in a Black school. I also failed to mention during the time I was in undergraduate school, there were a lot of demonstrations going on with 鈥� demonstrations for public accommodations. So, we had frequent 鈥� I don鈥檛 know how frequent 鈥� picketing theaters.
  Theaters were segregated.

  Before we leave undergrad, I want to mention that my senior year I got a call from the President鈥檚 office asking if I wanted to be interviewed by the CIA to work for the CIA. I wondered why CIA rather than the FBI. But in any event, I was happy to say I was already accepted to Medical School.

  Interviewer: What could they have wanted?

  Dr. Elliott: To spy on the Black folks as they had one man do with Martin Luther King and that movement.

  Interviewer: That鈥檚 amazing. What do you think was happening there with Black leaders not being able to talk in traditionally Black institutions?

  Dr. Elliott: Well, just the Regents and the power structure felt like it would be too 鈥� you know, it might aggravate the Black folks into rioting and demonstrating or whatever. It was no problem if they were speaking to a White audience, but they weren鈥檛 about to let them speak to Black school. So, Malcolm could not speak in North Carolina Central in Durham, and neither could Stokely Carmichael. He had to speak at Duke.

  Interviewer: When you were getting closer to, you know, finishing your undergraduate studies, did you have the option or the wish to attend a different medical school?

  Dr. Elliott: No. Again, I told you. I wasn鈥檛 very smart in doing certain things. I only applied to two 鈥� in fact, I don鈥檛 think I applied but to two universities. 黑料网 and somewhere else. The same thing for medical school. I only applied to 黑料网, and I think a school in Washington, D. C. I鈥檓 not sure.

  Interviewer: Only those two.

  Dr. Elliott: I鈥檓 sorry.

  Interviewer: Only those two.

  Dr. Elliott: Only those two.

  Interviewer: Wow. Okay. So, now, we are in medical school. Can you please tell me about overall in your time at the 黑料网?
  How many Black students were there in your class, for example?

  Dr. Elliott: Well, for Black students, it was a pattern of one every two years starting with the student who entered in 1952. I don鈥檛 know if his name was Slade. You would probably know that. But there was on Black student in 鈥�52, 鈥�54, 鈥�56, 鈥�58, 鈥�60. I went in 鈥�61 and there was another one is 鈥�62. I鈥檓 not sure what the pattern was after that but not very many.

  Interviewer: Yes, not very many.

  Dr. Elliott: One thing I want to mention about med school entering 鈥� is again, one of my White classmates was kind enough to ask me if I had a scholarship. I said, no. He said all you have to do is go to the front office, and they鈥檒l give you a scholarship, which was incredible.
  So, tuition was $600 a semester. So, I just went to the front office, and they said sure. So, they reduced it to $300 a semester. So, that means $600 a year you could go to medical school. Sad that so many minority doctors could have afforded that if they had been able to get in.

  Interviewer: Indeed. That reminds me to ask you for your undergraduate studies, how did you finance that?

  Dr. Elliott: Oh, the reason I鈥檓 laughing is 鈥� my recollection is tuition was $75 a semester. I looked it up recently it said $100, but I distinctly remember it was $75 a semester. So, both of my parents being teachers, that was just not a problem. The number was so low that, in fact, I suspect it was lower than what many of my classmates paid that went to traditionally Black schools.

  Interviewer: But medical school was at least three times as expensive even with your scholarship.

  Dr. Elliott: Yes.

   

  Interviewer: Was that still affordable for your parents?
  Dr. Elliott: Very much so.
  Interviewer: Good. Tell me more about your experiences here at 黑料网.

  Dr. Elliott: Well, I made some notes. You see me looking at them. The second year, 8-28-63 was the March on Washington. So, my wife and I boarded a bus in Chapel Hill. We rendezvoused with a group of 17 buses from North Carolina went to the March on Washington. The stage was about two stories high. So, we ended up down past the stage in the corner. You really couldn鈥檛 see the stage, which was not as significant. If you had been upfront, it would have been so far away you still couldn鈥檛 see. But anyway. It was extremely dynamic. One of the things that I remember as well as the speeches was Peter, Paul, and Mary. They were like warm up group.

  Most minorities were probably not familiar, and I was not, with that group Peter, Paul, and Mary, a White group. But they started singing 鈥渋f I had a hammer, I鈥檇 hammer in the morning, I鈥檇 hammer in the evening, all over this land.鈥� So, me probably like thousands of others wondering what is this song about? Then, they got to the part 鈥淚鈥檇 hammer out freedom; I鈥檇 hammer out justice. I鈥檇 hammer out love between my brothers and my sisters all over this land.鈥� The whole quarter of a million people erupt. It was really a wake-up call. It just got us ready for all the speeches to come, leading up to the I Have a Dream speech.

  Interviewer: Wow. You were there for that. That鈥檚 amazing.

  Dr. Elliott: Yes. The 鈥� the other thing, I think, the second year 鈥� the first or second year, Dean Smith, Coach Dean Smith of basketball team, and I went to the same church briefly in Chapel Hill. He asked me to go with him down to Laurinburg Institute to recruit Charlie Scott who was the first Black player in ACC. He was the best player, the most outstanding player I鈥檇 ever seen. However, the White sportswriters did not vote him as on the ACC team of the year. I think it happened the second year but not the first year. But the other thing 鈥� during that second year was 鈥� excuse me, we were still having demonstrations.

  After one of the Carolina football games, we decided to block all the roads leading from Chapel Hill, for a demonstration for public accommodations. So, during the meeting, I mentioned I was a second year medical student. I wasn鈥檛 prepared to go to jail. They said no problem. Can you use your car to take the demonstrators and block the road so cars can鈥檛 go past? I said sure. So, I did that. Got there and parked my car. Then, as people got blocked off, they came and surrounded our car and started rocking it. So, I got out and locked the car. Stood against the door with my arms folded.

  They backed away. Of course, I was just ordinary looking Black boy 185 pounds. Did not look like Shaq O鈥橬eil. As I told, I think, one of my sons once, I鈥檝e never been intimidated in my life. But it because of the circumstances of where I was. If I had been on one of the buses with the Freedom Riders who went down in Alabama and tried to burn out the bus, I would have been intimidated. But I鈥檝e just been blessed where I grew up. But anyway, that lasted until the police came. They cleared the sit-in.

  Interestingly enough, when I got out of the car nobody said anything to me. No racial slurs. No nothing. I said this is North Carolina, not Alabama where I probably would have been beaten to death or severely injured. So, after the police left, folks 鈥� no, not after they left. But the folks got in front of my car and said we鈥檙e moving demonstrators. The police had to come move them so I could leave. That was the end of that incident which was very interesting.

  Interviewer: It must have been very scary too.

  Dr. Elliott: My senior year in med school 鈥� my senior year in med school I didn鈥檛 have much contact with the wards 鈥� but I was aware that they were segregated. So, three Jewish interns, Mark and Elaine Hilberman and Peter Schwab assisted me in identifying the wards that were segregated. So, I wrote up a complaint to be submitted to Hill Burton [Hill Burton Act]. Could not do it in my name. I never would have passed the wards. But I did it through a local chapter of CORE. They came down and the hospital was immediately integrated. Also, this is my senior year. I applied for the Berry plan. This was during Vietnam.

  So, if you did not have the Berry plan after your first year of residency/internship, you were sent to Vietnam. So, I applied for

  the Berry plan. Also, the senior cookout at Dr. [Isaac] Taylor鈥檚 home. He was the Dean of the Medical School. James Taylor, the famous James Taylor, is his son. He played for our class during the cookout 鈥� he wasn鈥檛 famous then; he was in high school 鈥� with maybe his brother or some other people. But that鈥檚 just interesting to look back on. So, that was the end of Medical School heading into internship/residency.

  Interestingly, I want to mention this. The only time I ever remember hearing the 鈥楴鈥� word was 鈥� one of my first patients. As an intern, I walked into the room and this four-year-old blue eyed angel said, 鈥渕ommy, he鈥檚 an 鈥楴.鈥欌�� Mommy said, 鈥渘o, Cindy. He鈥檚 the doctor.鈥� That was the end of that. Of course, I knew where that came from. Unfortunately, the little angel died of leukemia. She came along at a point where over 80 to 90% of the kids at that time died with acute leukemia. Whereas I think that鈥檚 completely reversed now. It was pretty uneventful.

  Also, right at the beginning of that first year, I got a call from Fort Bragg from Agent Doby and Agent Morrison who wanted to do an investigation of me. I asked what was the nature of the investigation. They said traveling in the Soviet Union not under the auspice of the U.S. government. So, that was interesting because I had to get a room and typewriter. So, they came in and flashed their badges. I was laughing because I said this is just like the FBI program I was watching at the time. The most 鈥� most of the interview was these long pages maybe three or four long pages of organizations that I had to read over and see if I belonged to any of them.

  This was during the McCarthy time or post McCarthy. Of course, I didn鈥檛 belong to any of them. A couple of them I commented.
  These sound like good organizations like Cuban Mothers or Orphan Children. They said, yes, that鈥檚 what got a lot of people in difficulty. But they were through in about three hours. They were really pleased because they said it took them three weeks to interview a student at Duke who came out of the Hungarian Revolution in 1960. So, they had to list every person that he knew in Hungary and every person he communicated with. Because that was one of the first questions they asked me.

  Did I know any Communist? Had I ever met any Communist? I said, yes, I met them in East Germany and Russia. They said, no,

  in this country. I said, no, and that was the end of that. So, that was an interesting encounter my first year. The second year, I mingled and knew most all the Black people working in the hospital in every capacity. The only people who were not menial positions were Hilliard Caldwell who worked in the Renal Department. I don鈥檛 know if he was doing dialysis or what he was doing, but it was a very impressive position. My wife was in Social Work. I was a resident. Betsy Davis was a dietician.

  So, clearly there was a lot of discrimination in employment because I had two friends, Lacey Streeter, who had to drop out of law school for a semester with a bleeding ulcer, who applied at 黑料网 for a job. The only thing they offered him was in housekeeping or orderly in the operating room. I forget which one. The same thing with Herbie Owens, who the next year went on to get an NIH scholarship. They offered him the same type of job. So, I interviewed a lot of people in the hospital including the personnel director who I had attended a number of social sessions with the Chief of Staff in Pediatrics.

  We, you know, made small talk. Of course, his wife and my wife knew each other in the Social Work department. I鈥檓 sure he had me assessed as a good Negro. But I finished the complaint. Wrote it all up. Three or four pages. I went to see Dean Taylor just because I respected him and liked him. James Taylor鈥檚 dad who was the Dean at the Medical School. He was very supportive. He said I can鈥檛 support you publically 鈥� I鈥檓 very supportive. I didn鈥檛 need it, but it meant a lot. So, I filed that with the Department of Contract Compliance, Department of Labor.

  After a week or so, Betsy Davis, my friend who was the dietician, told me that one of the women in the cafeteria had been fired. They called them supervisors. It was supposed to be Black supervisors. They were just on the line serving. She said that [there was] no cause, [that] the woman in charge of the cafeteria was a White woman. So, I called Julius Chambers, who I mentioned before. He said he would come down the next week and look into it. In the meantime, I wrote a letter to the Daily TarHeel talking about the situation at the hospital and the fact that this woman had been fired for no cause.

  I said that hopefully the upcoming investigation by the Department of Labor will remedy some of these inequities. I signed B. T.

  Elliot, Jr, MD, Department of Pediatrics. Well, of course, when that letter went out, things hit the fan. The next Monday 鈥� the first thing I want to mention is this woman was back at work. The second thing, the Chief of Staff, I won鈥檛 mention the name just out of respect. He鈥檚 deceased. But my Chief of Staff called me in and said [he] needed me to know that anything coming out of the Department of Pediatrics had to have his approval. I said, well, I apologize for using the Department of Pediatrics. You can be assured that any further communication with the newspaper I鈥檒l only use my name. Of course, that was not what he wanted to hear. He said, 鈥渇urthermore, when I was your attending in the premature nursery, I was not at all pleased with your performance. I鈥檓 not sure you鈥檒l be back as a resident next year.鈥� Well, first of all, it was like a pedestal being broken because I admired this person so much. The integrity. One of the most fantastic teachers you could even imagine. He was the type of person that one second after something was wrong, you knew about it.

  The whole time that he was my attending in the preemie nursery, there were zero complaints. So, it was an idle threat because I knew throughout my residency, my performance was minimally very good. It would have been a big flair up if he had not had me back. So, that was of no concern. Also, I was making $1,500 a year. If I had to go to some inferior or lesser location, I would have been making $3,500 a year. I had backup at home. So, I wasn鈥檛 concerned about supporting my family.

  But 鈥� also, the director of the hospital called me in along with Hilliard Caldwell, who I mentioned was in the Renal Department, and asked a bunch of not too bright questions. The most interesting one I remember he asked about wanting to be a doctor or a Civil Rights agitator. I informed him that the two were not incompatible. So, that was sort of the end of that. The word was he was in the hospital for an extended period of time with a bleeding ulcer. Mr. Hodgkins came down and spent three weeks at the hospital. That was a joyous time for me because I鈥檇 see him every day sometimes more than once a day walking with the Director of Personnel.

  Hello, Dr. Elliot. Hello, Mr. Hodgkins. The Director of Personnel would turn his head the other way. So, we went through those endless times. Joyous times for me. But things started to change after that investigation. The third complaint against the university was the next year, which I filed against the university itself,

  because the university owns the utilities, the lights, the gas, whatever all utilities plus the airport. So, I didn鈥檛 have contact with the investigator that came in.

  Interestingly, one of the first persons hired was John Davis, who was the husband of Betsy Davis that I made reference to before. I think that鈥檚 essentially all from the notes I had. At least most of the things I wanted to cover.

  Interviewer: Can I go back to a couple of moments? I鈥檓 very curious about what residency was like. Because you mentioned that you did Pediatrics here at 黑料网.

  Dr. Elliott: Yes.

  Interviewer: I was wondering if for residency you had early on committed to Pediatrics as the thing you wanted to do, or if you had considered other areas of training in addition.

  Dr. Elliott: No. I never considered anything else. In fact, I avoided surgery because 鈥� during the surgery rotation, I鈥檓 not sure when that 鈥� well, that wouldn鈥檛 have been in residency. That would have been in med school. You had to stand in there and hold the retractors 鈥� I call them idiot sticks 鈥� for extended periods of time. They would come and give you some chocolate milk through a straw. So, I did not enjoy that. They were happy to excuse me from doing that because I didn鈥檛 mind doing the burn patients. So, the burn patients are put in a tank. I was really good at gently debriding them. So, I didn鈥檛 have to do much surgery at all. But I was always committed to pediatrics.

  Interviewer: When you were admitted into the pediatrics residency, I imagine there were very few Black docs there in the service.

  Dr. Elliott: None.

  Interviewer: None. You were the first?

  Dr. Elliott: Well, in pediatrics. I don鈥檛 know if I was the first because I don鈥檛 know what the doctors before me did. I don鈥檛 think Zollicoffer did and I don鈥檛 think Marshall Redding, who was a class ahead of me, I don鈥檛 think he 鈥� I think he did surgery. So, I suspect I could have been.

   

  Interviewer: That鈥檚 amazing. I鈥檒l look into 鈥� I鈥檓 going to have to check what James Slade and Oscar Diggs did. We have records of where they went into. I actually 鈥�

  Dr. Elliott: Was James Slade the first?

  Interviewer: Oscar Diggs was the first.

  Dr. Elliott: Oh, Oscar Diggs.

  Interviewer: Yeah. James Slade was the second one.

  Dr. Elliott: One other fact I forgot to tell you; my classmate David Dansby was the first undergraduate to graduate from 黑料网. When I came back from Europe, I went and talked to the head of the German Department in German, of course. They gave me 15 hours of German that I had not taken. So, in my senior year, I was happy. I didn鈥檛 need a degree. The med school called up and asked what degree was I getting. I said none. They said, oh, no, we want everyone to have a degree. So, at that time, they had a three-year program to go to med school. So, I had to go to summer school. I took a Botany course.

  That was enough to get me in the three-year program. So, at the end of my first year of medical school, I got a BS in Medicine. So, I would have been the second or third along with George Grigsby who was a class behind me. We would have been second third graduates. But David Dansby was the first.

  Interviewer: Wow. Wait, so you did your undergraduate in three years? Dr. Elliott: No.
  Interviewer: No.

  Dr. Elliott: No, I was there four years. Remember, I was in Europe the third year.

  Interviewer: Right. Yes.

  Dr. Elliott: I came back the fourth year. But for the third year, I only had 15 hours of German.

   

  Interviewer: Right.

  Dr. Elliott: I didn鈥檛 try to get credit for the couple of history courses I took. So, I didn鈥檛 have enough hours to graduate. But it wasn鈥檛 just for me.
  They had a three-year program that you could go through undergrad school and take certain courses. At the end of your first year of medical school, you got a BS in Medicine. So, I qualified for that.

  Interviewer: In addition to that, you came back from Germany bilingual.

  Dr. Elliott: Yes. In fact, after the first month in language school, my fluency was excellent because I did the right thing. I lived with a German family. I was highly motivated to be able to talk to them. I hung out with a Turkish boy and an Italian boy in the evening. So, we only spoke broken German. We could only speak German. At lunchtime, I was with an Italian boy and two Italian girls and two American G.I.s who only spoke German. They were in an advanced class. They were American students. English students went there to hang out with each other.

  In four months, they still had not learned a lot of German. But I was highly motivated and carried a dictionary in my pocket. So, I was looking at words continuously all day long. After a month, it was going great. So, at the end of four months, I was learning a lot of the vocabulary and was doing extremely well.

  Interviewer: That鈥檚 amazing. What year did you graduate medical school? Dr. Elliott: 鈥�65.
  Interviewer: 1965. Once you started residency, can you 鈥� people are going to hear you or read this, how would you compare residency to the rigor of medical school?

  Dr. Elliott: I enjoyed residency. In fact, it may have been very different from what it is today. When I was on call as a resident, you could expect maybe one patient. The most patients I ever had was three in one night. Got a call saying I had three patients. I thought they were kidding. They say, no, they鈥檙e sick. I think it was salmonella or shigella, something like that. So, that鈥檚 the most patients I ever had. Most patients on call 鈥� I mean, most evenings on call I could

  expect zero to one patient. So, it was very low key, perhaps, compared to now. A lot of lectures [were] extremely enjoyable.

  In fact, speaking of feedback about the suits I was filing. There was essentially no feedback except for my Chief of Staff. A couple of doctors accosted me once and said 鈥淚 think you鈥檙e a traitor to the ship.鈥� I didn鈥檛 even engage that conversation. I said, well, you鈥檙e welcome to your opinion and kept on going. Then, none of my fellow residents ever said anything. The Chief Resident, a couple of times, had observed me talking to perhaps an LPN or somebody from housekeeping. These were people I knew and were friends.
  We picketed together and so forth. There was a saying that if three Black people were talking together, they were planning something, which in our case was true.

  So, I remember a couple of times a resident in a very acerbic tone said, 鈥淓lliot, we鈥檙e ready to make rounds.鈥� But other than that, I got no feedback from my peers.

  Interviewer: Do you remember in residency if there was a special moment or a special event when you felt yourself come into your own as a medical professional?

  Dr. Elliott: Not really. When you said that, I just remember the first time I heard my name over the PA system. I think it was a continuous process. I had great instructors. One of the greatest was my Chief of Staff. But I had great instructors all the way through. It was a totally enjoyable experience.

  Interviewer: Were you mainly here in Chapel Hill? Dr. Elliott: Was I what?
  Interviewer: Mainly here in Chapel Hill for residency? Dr. Elliott: Totally.
  Interviewer: Did most of your patients 鈥� were they African Americans? Or were they 鈥�

  Dr. Elliott: Not at all. No, across the board. Made no difference whatsoever.
  Interviewer: Residency back then was still three years?

   

  Dr. Elliott: Yes.
  Interviewer: Three years.
  Dr. Elliott: I guess 鈥� I guess the reason I said internship/residency is because back then, the first year was called internship. The last two were called residency. I think that鈥檚 changed.

  Interviewer: Yeah. I don鈥檛 know. I mean, I think the weight of tradition is important. They call it still the intern year or the first year of residency, but it鈥檚 a special moment, right, when you are the doc but you鈥檙e still finding your way.

  Dr. Elliott: Yeah. It was a totally enjoyable and exciting experience.

  Interviewer: When you think about finishing residency and now moving on to the next stage of your career, how did you decide what to do?
  Where to go next?

  Dr. Elliott: Well, excuse me. Part of it was already decided for me because I got the Berry plan, which meant I had to do two years in the Air Force. So, because that was during Vietnam. So, you had to put down your choices of what areas you wanted to go. So, I put down Wheelus Air Force Base in Libya because I wanted to be around some Black people. I forget what the other choices were, but I didn鈥檛 get any of those. I was assigned to Clark Air Base in the Philippines which was great. But at the time, I didn鈥檛 know where the Philippines was.

  It was a blessing because after one year of leaving residency, [Muammar] Gaddafi kicked the British and the U.S. out of Wheelus Air Base in Libya. So, I would have been kicked out to go somewhere else. So, the Philippines was a good location. It was
  鈥� you know, leaving predominantly all White Chapel Hill, which was a good experience. But a base full of Filipinos, which are great people, and probably several thousand Black non-commissioned officers and about 35 officers. So, that was another good experience.

  Interviewer: Wow. By then, you already had a family, right? Dr. Elliott: I beg your pardon?

   

  Interviewer: You had a family by then already. Dr. Elliott: Yes.
  Interviewer: Did they come with you? Dr. Elliott: Yes.
  Interviewer: Wow. Children?

  Dr. Elliott: Yes. Two. Two boys.
  Interviewer: Wow. Living in the Philippines.
  Dr. Elliott: Yes.
  Interviewer: That is something else.

  Dr. Elliott: Before our time runs out, there are some recommendations I wanted to leave for the students.

  Interviewer: Yes, of course.

  Dr. Elliott: You let me know when. Now or later.

  Interviewer: Now is great. Although, I want to hear more. I want to talk more. If we could continue this conversation later, I would really appreciate it.

  Dr. Elliott: Okay. When you talk about career, I wanted to encourage the students to be career detectives. Because coming out for me, it was not an option to return to North Carolina practice because Black doctors had been there, but you couldn鈥檛 get hospital privileges.
  You had to turn your patients over to White doctors鈥� practices in the area I grew up in. Then, academic medicine 鈥� excuse me 鈥� academic medicine was not an option. But now, there鈥檚 so many options. Just like back then with Watergate, I learned that lawyers do hundreds if not thousands of different things 鈥� I鈥檓 sorry. I thought that they just went to court. That was all.

  So, I鈥檓 sure nowadays, I know, there鈥檚 just so many different things that doctors can do. Everything from Social Security

  Disability, which is something I did. In the industry, there must be infinite opportunities with stock options and stock. So, I would encourage them to talk to faculty. Talk to doctors and practice. Talk to 鈥� not even in medicine that work for different companies to see if they have doctors just to see what all the options are. You have infinite number of options.

  The other thing I wanted to share was had to do with travels. As the doctors finish and start to travel, I wanted them to have extreme caution about going to undeveloped countries about the roads and road conditions. My children came very close to being orphans when I was in the Philippines because my wife and I took a trip up to Baguio, which is a resort, which is on a paved road. No problem. We were told if you go up the Banoi Banyak, which was unbelievably picturesque mountains. Terraced with waving wheat all the way up and tribesmen we would take pictures of. But what we didn鈥檛 know, and we didn鈥檛 know to ask what the roads were like.

  Well, the roads were the most horrendous you could imagine. A single road going around the side of a mountain with 1,500 feet drop off. Many times, the tires could not have been less than a foot from the edge. I didn鈥檛 know that. I kept my head down and prayed so much of the trip. It was a one-way street. So, if you met a car, you had to back up to where you could pass. So, just want them to be cautious. I think Lisa One-Eye [Lisa 鈥淟eft Eye鈥� Lopes] of TLC died in Honduras on a 鈥� on a Jeep trip doing something similar.
  Also, I鈥檝e been to the Philippines 鈥� not the Philippines. Probably been to Hawaii a dozen and a half time because my wife flew for Delta.

  But we travel around a lot. You come to these roads that were 鈥� what do you call 鈥� off road. But in Hawaii, they looked like they were decent roads. But 鈥� just the caution is to know where the roads are like in underdeveloped countries, especially, before you take them. Speaking of developed countries like Hawaii, the caution is in my travels there 鈥� not in the travels. In my experience, I know I鈥檝e seen the news of at least three deadly helicopter crashes. So, that is not something I would encourage for anybody to take a helicopter trip around the island of Hawaii.

  The last one, I was a little bit hesitant to do, but I think I want to do it because it may save somebody鈥檚 child. I鈥檓 not going to use a

  name because the person is deceased. It鈥檚 easy to find. It鈥檚 a well-known internationally known physician in Chapel Hill who committed suicide within the past five years because they were accused of molesting hundreds of children in Boston. This is a person that I knew or thought I knew quite well. We worked
  together one or two years in the Philippines. I think I am or thought I was a pretty good judge of character. But this person was one of the most personable, nicest, most engaging people I鈥檝e ever met.

  No red flags. Zero red flags. He was totally devoted to the Boy Scouts. He was always going to Boy Scout conventions down in the southern Philippines. We must have had lunch many times. We talked all the time. Invited us to his home once, which I went. So, I鈥檓 just asking the doctors to be extremely careful with their children. It鈥檚 okay to be slightly paranoid. It鈥檚 okay to offend somebody. But 鈥� you know, you can鈥檛 always pick up red flags.
  Because I don鈥檛 think anybody could have picked up a red flag on this individual because there weren鈥檛 any. So, I just wanted to share that.

  Interviewer: Thank you. That is great advice, actually. I mean, it resonates. I have two small kids.

  Dr. Elliott: Then, what鈥檚 鈥� the other thing which I was blessed is that my boys at the time were five and three. I would not have allowed them to go to the southern Philippines to camp. But if he were involved in a Boy Scout camp on base, which was huge, I would not have hesitated at all for them to go to camp with him. So, that was another one of my blessings.

  Interviewer: Yeah. Can I ask you one more 鈥� would you allow me to ask you one more question? Or I know you 鈥�

  Dr. Elliott: Whatever.

  Interviewer: I wanted to ask you if you think about your long career as a pediatrician, of what are you proudest?

  Dr. Elliott: What am I proudest of? I worked 鈥� twenty years, probably too long. But I worked twenty years at a OEO-HEW [Office of Economic Opportunity 鈥� US Dept. of Health, Education, and Welfare] low income clinic, which I loved. I enjoyed the patients. Loved the patients. That was extremely enjoyable. After that, I

  worked twelve years with Social Security Disability which was an interesting process. I was happy with what I was able to do for clients. But also not pleased with other things that I saw which are ongoing. Something that I鈥檝e been slowly working on for a number of years which I can probably talk to you more about within the next year.

  Interviewer: Yeah. That would be 鈥� I would be glad to have that opportunity, actually. I know we鈥檙e a little bit over the one hour that I had told you.

  Dr. Elliott: Actually, you told me two hours.

  Interviewer: I did? Do you mind if we talk a little longer? Do you want a break? Dr. Elliott: No, I鈥檓 good. I鈥檒l take another sip of water.
  Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. I have my cup of water here too very much on hand. Tell me more about what these things that have troubled you over your career then.

  Dr. Elliott: Tell you more about which things?

  Interviewer: The things that have bothered you. The developments that you were just telling me about.

  Dr. Elliott: Well, that鈥檚 something that I鈥檓 not really prepared right now to talk about because I think there鈥檒l be some events coming up. Because the system is entirely broken. I鈥檒l give you a flavor of what鈥檚 going on there. During my tenure there, they sent out memos to deny patients. In order to get the cases out, there is tremendous pressure on the adjudicators to get the cases out. They were not allowed to wait on the medical records from doctors, other hospitals; but they were concerned about numbers. It鈥檚 really an atrocious situation.

  Interviewer: I see. I understand why this is a sensitive thing. I鈥檇 be happy to circle back to that some other time. But I do have another question. It has to do with you being a Black doc and how that has mattered in your workplace and in your community.

  Dr. Elliott: Well, I鈥檝e never been in private practice. It has not really mattered.
  Probably part of the reason is I鈥檝e been in Atlanta which has a

  huge Black presence. I also was a physician at Atlanta Job Corp during the same time I was at the Community Center for twenty years. So, not being in private practice and not being in another location, I鈥檇 say it has not mattered at all being a Black physician because there are many Black physicians here in Atlanta.

  Interviewer: After the Philippines, where did you go? Dr. Elliott: To Atlanta.
  Interviewer: You went straight back to Atlanta. Okay. First time living in Atlanta.

  Dr. Elliott: Yes. Say it again.
  Interviewer: First time living in Atlanta?
  Dr. Elliott: Yes, well, I had visited during my time in the Philippines. But I鈥檝e been here since 鈥�70, 鈥�71.

  Interviewer: Why Atlanta?

  Dr. Elliott: Because of the appeal as sort of a Black Mecca, and I heard a lot about Atlanta. When I came here and visited, I was very impressed. I was familiar with Durham, North Carolina, in terms of the Black 鈥� the Black insurance company [North Carolina Mutual] and the Black presence in the city on a smaller scale.
  Atlanta was on a much larger scale with all the universities, and the living, the housing. It was just very impressive.

  Interviewer: Did you stay there ever since? Dr. Elliott: Yes.
  Interviewer: Wow. Would it be fair to say then that Atlanta is the place where you have lived the longest?

  Dr. Elliott: Yes. I passed that milestone a few years ago.

  Interviewer: It is there in Atlanta that those other positions that you were telling me about where your career unfolded?

  Dr. Elliott: Yes.

   

  Interviewer: Okay. Got it. What about students? Have you gotten to meet students, medical students especially, since you returned to the United States in Atlanta?

  Dr. Elliott: None at all.

  Interviewer: So, I鈥檓 wondering 鈥�

  Dr. Elliott: I鈥檓 not involved with the Morehouse Medical School.

  Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Oh, Morehouse is right there, of course. I鈥檓 wondering if you put yourself in the position of thinking about present day minority students. Increasingly, we have more and more we鈥檙e trying to do better at the 黑料网. What has your experience taught you about ways in which we can better support our underrepresented minority students? What should we do better?

  Dr. Elliott: I haven鈥檛 given that a lot of thought. I guess because in my experience 鈥� excuse me. In my experience, getting admitted was one of the primary obstacles. Of course, I know financing has become a major issue in more recent years. What is the tuition now?

  Interviewer: Right now it is 鈥� that鈥檚 a great question. I actually don鈥檛 know what the tuition is. But I can tell you that just about a good chunk of people who finish medical school here who are from North Carolina who have a bit of a subsidy, they still are looking at taking out loans for about $250,000.

  Dr. Elliott: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I guess that鈥檚 the biggest need for support.
  That鈥檚 why I just threw out those numbers in reverence to what I paid.

  Interviewer: Yeah, it is in reverence that you look at those numbers. I like the word you used here. Just taking a couple of steps back, when you were a medical student, what kept you steady in pursuit of your medical degree? Maybe people or hobbies or sources of inspiration that helped you stay with perspective.

  Dr. Elliott: Well, I guess I really didn鈥檛 need much help. I was always very optimistic. I had a pleasant environment to go to school in. I had

  interesting things going on outside of medical school. So, it was just a lot that kept me stimulated other than just being in medical school. The demonstrations was one of them. And the association with the 鈥� you know, the people that I was demonstrating with was very helpful.

  Interviewer: I wanted to circle back to that to being part of the Civil Rights Movement at that time and that being such a strong influence in your medical 鈥� well, in your personal outlook at the time. It is not something that medical students in the present 鈥� but maybe they do. It鈥檚 not as if they are less politically motivated or inspired.
  Sometimes it鈥檚 hard to say how important something is when you鈥檙e in the middle of it.

  Dr. Elliott: Yeah. Well, I guess it鈥檚 a different time. My time 鈥� you were just totally immersed in the Civil Rights Movement and picketing every week or demonstrations every week. It was really quite exciting. As I think back, it鈥檚 just unreal to me that the first 鈥淣鈥� word I remember was from this little angel and never from all the demonstrations I was in and the situation with blocking the road leading out of Chapel Hill.

  Interviewer: Last question I want to ask you. Most and least rewarding aspects of being a physician?

  Dr. Elliott: I think the most rewarding time I had 鈥� excuse me 鈥� was the twenty years working with children in the [Atlanta OEO-HEW] clinic. But on the other hand, it was also rewarding times in Social Security Disability because it was a unique situation where thousands of HIV patients were allowed, which normally would not have taken place in that organization ever. There was a woman
  鈥� I don鈥檛 want to call her name because I don鈥檛 know it exactly. But there was a woman, a legal aid, who was like a bulldog in the agency. It was like fear and trepidation when she came around. A person who later was very antagonistic to my approach about allowing cancer patients 鈥� was very oppositional.

  This woman used her skills to allow thousands of HIV patients out of fear, trepidation initiated by this woman from legal aid. So, that was one really rewarding aspect of being there 鈥� of getting many thousands allowed that would not have ordinarily except for this. Well, some would have been because of myself, and another great humanitarian worked there also.

   

  Interviewer: That鈥檚 great. This is exactly what I needed and what this project needs to move forward. Some of the 鈥� some of these experiences are going to be tremendously helpful, I think, for students to think about how things have changed or how they haven鈥檛. To think about who gets access to what nowadays, and how it is that physicians can play a role in that as well. Thank you, Dr. Elliott. I鈥檓 so pleased to have had the chance to speak with you.

  Dr. Elliott: Well, I enjoyed it as well.

  Interviewer: Let me pause this. There 鈥� I don鈥檛 think I have. Okay. So, that was my recorder. Can I ask you 鈥� I have your email. What I want 鈥� oh, I also need to stop recording this.

  [End of Audio] Duration: 75 minutes

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About

Dr. Elliott talks about growing up with his parents, both teachers, and surrounded by other teachers as influential figures in Greensboro, NC. He describes arriving to 黑料网 as an undergraduate and staying at the YMCA, with much support from YMCA/YWCA Director Anne Queen. There he met characters such as Thurgood Marshall, Allard Lowenstein, and Eleanor Roosevelt. He studied for a year in Germany during his 3rd year college. He traveled to East Germany, Yugoslavia, and Russia. As an undergraduate, he participated in many Civil Rights demonstrations to demand the racial integration of public accommodations. As a medical student at 黑料网 SOM, he met Lawrence Zollicoffer and Stokely Carmichael, and developed connections to the racially-integrated law firm of Ferguson Stein in Charlotte. While on a visit to New York, he met Malcolm X in NY. While a medical student, he went to the 1963 March on Washington, featuring Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. As a resident in Pediatrics at 黑料网, he filed complaints to address employment discrimination fellow African Americans faced in the hospital. Following medical school, he served at the Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines as part of the Berry Plan. Dr. Elliott offers some advice for physicians-in-training. Civil Rights activism kept him motivated as a student and, later, professional in medicine.